From: "Mario Goveia" <mgov...@sbcglobal.net>
As a practicing Catholic and a believer in objective science, it
continues to boggle the mind when otherwise serious individuals confuse
science and faith, which is the basis of religion.
From: "Fr. Ivo C. de Souza" <icso...@bsnl.in>
But what is faith for you? "Beliefs" without any historical-scientific
basis?
<<< Yes. For example, what historic or scientific basis can you cite for
the Virgin Birth, The Holy Trinity, the Resurrection of Christ, His
Ascension into Heaven, and the Assumption of Mary into Heaven?
***Virginal conception of Jesus has a historical basis (cf.Mt 1:18-23). The
"Holy Trinity" is based on the revelation of Jesus: God is his Father, Jesus
is the Son, and after his death and Resurrection, Jesus sent the Spirit.
Resurrection has a historical basis in the Gospel accounts, therefore, we do
accept his Resurrection ( on the basis of the empty tomb and his appearances
to the disciples), his ascension to heaven (to the Father). Mary is the
first creature to share in the Resurrection of Jesus, she was taken to
heaven, to the Father.
What scientific basis can you cite for the existence of Heaven, or Hell?
**Again, it is the teaching of Jesus, the teaching of the New Testament.
Jesus is a historical person, he is the Redeemer. You can always study more
details...
<<< Once I have accepted certain core beliefs based on certain
circumstantial evidence, the rest is based on faith, without any objective
scientific proof in either history or science.
***Historical-scientific evidence is there for "core beliefs", for the
Resurrection of Jesus, the foundation of the Christian Faith, for miracles,
for 'dogmas' (official expression of the Christian Faith" .
To begin with, I try to focus on the essentials of Christ's teaching,
which can all be summarized in a couple of pages. These are the Ten
Commandments, especially the last seven, The Golden Rule, and the Sermon
on the Mount.
***You accept the teaching of Jesus, you accept him, as proposed by the
Gospels. You have 'faith' in the historical person of Jesus.
> The rest means little to me. Most of it is designed to provide full
> employment and a good living for Padres and Madres. Except that I have
> far more respect for those Padres and Madres who toil tirelessly and
> endlessly and thanklessly in missions where they physically help those
> unable to help themselves. Those are the ones I try to help, not those
> who wear fancy clothes and Gucci shoes:-))
***We need everything and everyone for our historical faith... Each one
works according to his/her vocation. The engineer does his work, the mason
does his... Both are needed for the building. The missionaries do their
work, the bishops do theirs. It is 'missionary' work only for every
Christian. All are needed for the building up of the Kingdom of God! What do
you mean by "the rest means little to me"? Today we need also "fancy
clothes" and "Gucci shoes"... These are the signs of the times!
Why do you believe in God?
To tell you the truth, it is based on my gut-feeling that something
supernatural had to get the evolution of the universe started, that I
can't reconcile the engineering complexities of living things and of
thoughts and feelings and memories with simple evolution, and, finally,
the fact that many eminent scientists have been unable disprove the
existence of God.
**You are right. Our Reason tells us. I also think that Science alone cannot
explain the complexities of the Universe, the very beginning of the
Universe. God is a 'structural dimension' of the human being. God has made
us "to his own likeness and similarity" (Gen 1:27). Reason is illuminated by
Faith: it tells us that Jesus is the Son of God. I believe in the teaching
of Jesus, therefore I do believe in the existence of God, the Father.
> Is Science the only source of knowledge?
Yes, if you want to know something for sure or within a certain rational
probability. Otherwise it's all speculation and conjecture.
***Not at all. What about other truths? Can Science exhaust the truth, the
whole Reality? Are all Sciences following the same method? Empirical
sciences and the human sciences, the theological sciences?
Christian faith is historical faith, not mythical, therefore it has
historical-scientific basis. Not scientific, in the sense that it can be
empirically proved, like physical phenomena, but in its historical
background (as much as scientific test can do for the
spiritual-supernatural phenomena with their sensible wrappings), its
consequences, individual and societal...
> Religion tells us about God. Reason speaks to us.
This is proof positive that you have no idea of what most people refer to
as objective science.
***This is the "proof positive" that you do not understand what "revealed
Religion" is, of what is historical Revelation, of what is the witness of
the Gospels. In short, you do not see the difference...between empirical
sciences and other sciences, including theology.
How can also be easy doing good without faith in God? Jesus himself
spoke to us about his intimacy with the Father (God) and told us to do
good. If Mother Teresa has done what she did, it is because she lived in
communion with God.
I know at least three atheists who do a lot of good for poor people who do
not believe in God or Jesus, as well as hundreds of non-Christians who do
not believe that Jesus is the son of God.
***I know thousands of politicians who give money to the poor for their
votes... My contention is that we cannot "do good" without God's Grace, that
there is no "a-theist", that denying the existence of God does not mean that
the 'a-theist' lives without the Absolute, the Ground of Human Existence....
Who has given Ten Commandments? Who has spoken of Golden Rule with its
new foundation, and the Sermon on the Mount? If Jesus of Nazareth has
spoken to us, what did he say about God?
>
The Ten Commandments, the Golden Rule and the Sermon on the Mount make
conventional common sense. They need no scientific proof.
***Good, they do not need "scientific proof". The Golden Rule exists in our
hearts, in all religions (in its different formulation and foundation), but
Jesus of Nazareth has given it a radical meaning, as you can witness in the
lives of the missionaries, and a different foundation: his death and
Resurrection, his Spirit. The Ten Commandments, the Golden Rule, the Sermon
on the Mount are a gift of the Jewish-Christian Bible. I am glad to know
that it does not need a "scientific proof", that you seemed to ask me
throughout the discussion for religious tenets.
Homeopathy has its benefits. This is clear. I am not telling you to
follow only homeopathy, leaving allopathy. Both can work in these cases.
Padre Ivo, with "faith" like this, I hope you never get cancer:-))
***Finally, you land up with homeopathy. But homeopathy has nothing to do
with Religion. This is not 'faith', this is Science. But remember, Science
requires also faith. Therefore, I am not mixing science with faith: our life
itself is made up of faith and science. Science will not work without faith,
nor faith without science...
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
