Yo Greg!

On Sat, 20 Dec 2025 20:48:24 -0500
Greg Troxel <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Gary E. Miller" <[email protected]> writes:
> 
> > I do.  And it does help.  And some u-blox survey grade receivers do
> > not even give you the option to use SBAS.  
> 
> "survey grade" more or less means "carrier phase measurements, post
> processed or RTK", which does not care about the navigation solution.

I think you over sepcify.  All I meant was not the cheap stuff.

> >> especially for L1-only receivers.  Actual data with and without,
> >> compared to surveyed reference coordinates, would be interesting.  
> >
> > I have done some quick eyeball tests, and confirmed SBAS does not
> > help.  
> 
> You mean:
> 
>     autonomous navigation solution, say an hour's worth
>   vs
>     navigation solution with SBAS, same time interval

Yes.

> and the averaged position from SBAS is *closer to the true position of
> the monument*?

No, further.  SBAS degrades the fix quality.  THis is obvious with
gpsprof.

> >> Yes, but the data you get back can be in varying datums, including
> >> NAD83(CSRS) (which is close to NAD83(2011)).  
> >
> > Not large enough to get the variations Hans is seeing.  
> 
> NAD83 vs ITRF is big.  But he's all ITRFyyyy/WGS84(Gwww) sort of
> things.

Yes.  But when talking "accuracy" we are using consistent datums.

> >> Yes, because you are asking "how have the ITRF2020 coordinates
> >> changed between a measurement 3 years ago and a measurement
> >> yesterday, when those coordinates are expressed as "epoch of
> >> data".  
> >
> > That is not large enough to make what he sees.  Easy to check.  My
> > nearby CORS station has charts of historical drift.  
> 
> True it's not really big enough, but it's unsound to ignore it.

And yet, 99% do.

> 
> >> Formally, I see it as confused to compare data in a dynamic datum
> >> at different epochs, unless you are trying to calculate station
> >> velocities. The ITRF papers talk about bringing data to a common
> >> epoch in explaining how the ITRF solutions are done.  
> >
> > That makes sense.  They keep moving the 0,0,0 point of ECEF.  But 
> > not much more than 10 cm.  
> 
> The difference in origin/scale/orientiation between recent
> realizations is a cm or so.

Depending on your definition of "recent".

> But the ITRF2020 position of a disk in bedrock in Europe at epoch
> 2020.0 and epoch 2025.9 is going to be different because the plate is
> moving with respect to ITRF2020.   Glancing hastily at plate motion
> data
> https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2023GL106373
> I am going to assume 3 cm/y for EURA, matching NOAM.

Seems about right.

> In 6 years, that's 18 cm.  That is easily detectable with RTK and a
> high-quality RTN.

And much smaler than Hans is seeing.  So not a complete explanation of
his errors.  And then only if he is using the wrong datum.

> Even if I'm off by a factor of 2 in rate, it's still detectable.

Of course.  We know, because we see it.

RGDS
GARY
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
        [email protected]  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

            Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
    "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." - Lord Kelvin

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