Re: Opinions Of A Former AT Software Engineer

[Doug Geoffray]

David,

Given your email started with making sure the information was correct I 
thought I would correct what you said (smile).  I do not want to get 
into a huge flaming war on our policy of copy protection nor all the 
statements from the article which started this thread as that would only 
fuel the individual to write more (smile).

You state that because you live outside the USA your copy of Window-Eyes 
is copy protected.  That simply is not the true story. Our records 
indicate you are using the Norwegian version of Window-Eyes and it is 
not copy protected in any way.  You can install your Norwegian copy on 
every computer in the universe as long as you are the only user using 
it.  You are not limited in the number of computers you can install it 
on as you led to believe.

Now saying that it is true if you purchase an English copy of 
Window-Eyes it is copy protected in most countries outside of the USA.  
But the localized languages such as your Norwegian version are typically 
not copy protected.  In fact, the number of countries that we do copy 
protect non-English languages can be counted on one hand.

Just thought it was worth making sure the full story was provided.

Doug

On 8/13/2013 2:55 PM, David wrote:
Think you have one piece of wrong info here, and if you want a real 
comparison, please get that one corrected. Smile.

It may be true, that once you buy Window-Eyes, you will have no copy 
protection, and can install it freely on any number of computers you 
want. Well, at least if you live in the USA. But outside the USA - and 
maybe Canada - you will be under copy-restrictions. You then will only 
be allowed to install your copy of Window-Eyes, on a very limited 
number of computers. Once that number has been used, you are back to a 
discussion with GW, why you need to install more copies.

Freedom Scientific may be more restrictive inside the USA, making it 
more balanced for everyone, no matter where you live. You, who live in 
the USA, may find this frustrating and a real drawback. Sorry to say, 
but welcome to the real world. Smile. This is not anything but what 
those who do not live in the States, have to face over and over again. 
Agreed, it would be great to have a better way of getting your rights 
to use what you pay for, and one model may serve better than the 
other. But as things stand, keep this in mind, when you rank your 
choices.

Besides that, I wish there would be more focus on what we want, and 
good suggestions on how to accomplish it. From what I can see, and I 
did not read the whole set of articles initially refered to, it seems 
like quite a few complains, and not too much solutions. The only thing 
I really found, in the part I did read, was the point about the 
pricing of hardware. Many years in the market, have told me how good 
products hit the market, and could have been real solutions for many - 
but they are way over-priced. And, reality proves itself over and over 
again, that these products only cost a fraction of the price, to 
manufacture. We are told it is a tiny market, and that the dealers and 
their staff has to survive. But when you look at the figures those 
companies operate with, at the end of the year, I guess they have more 
money in their bank account, than most of us ever have had in our 
hands. I have seen many examples of products multiplying their price 
with five or more, simply going from the main office, to one dealer. 
And, should it happen it has to go to another sub-dealer, you will 
have the price multiplied once again. Not only when comes to 
electronic gadgets, but even when comes to aids for the daily living. 
No wonder, that you are forced to run a high budget, when you are 
shopping for any product for the blind. On that point, I am afraid we 
see same story repeated - even with GW. OK, they have their rights to 
survive ecconomically, but sometimes lowering the prices, would have 
meant a greater sales number, more user-experience to base new 
versions on - and definitely, may result in a higher account balance 
in the end of the year. My wish would have been, if the assistitive 
market, would have realized this. Lowering the profit on each sold 
unit, you could have had a higher number of users. And, that would 
have benefitted the blind users far more, than what is the case today. 
There is certain times, when you come across a company that sells 
products for the impaired, at prices that seem reduced, from what you 
usually would see similar products in the market. In many cases, these 
companies delivers highly functional and good products, but they have 
decided to cut on their profit for each product. If you want but one 
example, in the daily living department, look at:
   www.futureaids.com
and compare the prices to other companies. Wish we had seen certain 
companies inside the computer technology for the blind, take the same 
approach to the market and pricing.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Grimsby JR." 
<jgrim...@roadrunner.com>
To: "'bob jutzi'" <ju...@windstream.net>
Cc: <gw-info@gwmicro.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 4:13 PM
Subject: RE: Opinions Of A Former AT Software Engineer


Well I did think of making the below points.  The point of the message
beyond responding to remark maid buy butch was to point out how the 
screen
readers were evolving.  The below points are more about marketing, and
bringing the screen reading software to the end user.  Now the point has
been brought up I will give my view on this.
How are we being served buy the marketing and cells departments of the
screen reading manufactory.
First www.nvaccess.org well this is clear.  They produce an open sorce
screen reader. They bring you the productfree of charge with the 
option of
donations. They partner with others to bring you prayed options such as
vocalizer expressive.  This is a wonderful model. It makes the software
available to anyone that wants to use it. There are problems with this
approach.  Joe of serotech speaks more eloquently   then I of the 
problems
with this approach.  the main problem is support.  Where do you go if 
you
need help or support for the program.  You can go to the mailing list or
find a 3rd party that might do skype with you to help you with a 
problem.
There is no one from the producer who you can speak live to and get your
problem solved, so in short it is free you get what you pay for in 
the way
of support.
Gw micro and window-eyes.  They have a leace to own package. You pay 
every
month tell you get it paid off.  You then have a SMA that means you are
covered for a few years you then get a SMA that will cover you for 
another
few years.  You only have topay once for what ever version of 
windows. You
can install it on as many computers as you need it.  No copy protection.
System access a subscription model.  You pay yearly or monthly for the
program.  You never get it paid off.  You always have the latest 
version of
the sotware how ever.   The subscription  price is the same no matter 
what
version of the windows software your working with.   You can get other
service's  bundeld with it.  It does have copy protection. There is a 
free
option at www.satogo.com so if you need the software you can get it for
free.  The problem with this it runs in the cloud and so getting it 
started
has a delay factor.
Jaws for windows. No subscription  or leace o to own model.  You pay up
front for the whole pacage you then have to buy a sma.  You pay more
depending on what version  of windows you want to use.
How I would rank the each system.  Gw micro and window eyes. Leace to 
own
once you pay for It it is yours.  You can then pay for a sma when you 
need
one.  You hae support when you need it.   System access serrotek.  You
subscribe to it you have support you also can get a budnel of oher 
hins not
offered  buy anyone else.  In fact I would go so far as to say the main
point of system access is to give you access to those other things.  At
least that is the point the company has in creating it in the first 
place.
One thing you should undersand  is that they produce the screen 
reader that
is not the main focus of the company.
NVDA www.nvaccess.org.  free anyone can get it with paid options 
offered buy
partners.  No in house support.
Jaws for windows  fs.  You pay out the nose over and over you get in 
house
support
  Ok well I hink that covers that


-----Original Message-----
From: bob jutzi [mailto:ju...@windstream.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 6:02 AM
To: gw-info@gwmicro.com
Subject: Re: Opinions Of A Former AT Software Engineer

A well-written article; however, I wish he would have mentioned the 
fact of
GW being the more user-friendly of the two; example, GW's 
lease-to-own (LTO)
program, only needing to purchase one Window-eyes in order to use all
versions of Windows XP and above, as well as the lack of that stupid
activation nonsense found in all FS software.

On 8/13/2013 8:34 AM, Jim Grimsby JR. wrote:
Yeh and then for those of us who have more then one disability the
problem is conpunded.  Being blind and hearing impaird makes it a 
nice fun
mix.
When you go to an interview and are having problems hearing the person
who is interviewing you and trying to explain how you as a blind
mostly deff person is going to do the job.
He also misses the point in a few places in the article.
He talks about how wonderful NVDA is.  It is truly a wonderful program
and I am glad we have it.  One of the main reasons though NVDA is able
to do as much as it does is because of the work that he basicly
laughed at gw micro for doing.  If they had not helped other companys
for nothing to work with standards NVDA would not now be able to use
those standards to provide the access it does with out video drivers
and the like.  NvAcess is taking the same approach gw micro has taken
in the past and now if we can get the access standard use it will work
with NVDA and window-eyes and even jaws.
The next point this fellow misses is you get to the point in evalution
of a program where revalution is no longer needed. Major inovations is
not really what we need any more. Access is good enough that you now
just need evolution.  Also you get to a point with programs that what
major revalution is realy possible.
I mean lets take Microsoft word.  Getting us out of the screen reader
for the moment.  What major revolutionary ways can Microsoft really
take a word processer at this point.  Ok they went to a ribbon 
interface.
Mixing the
menu and dialog interface.   They took it to the cloud.  That being 
said
you
still write documents the way you always have.
The same is true with your screen reader.  The voices sound better.
The access gets smoother.  More and more programs become accessible.
Some programs get broken and some get fixed some don't.  how then do
we proseed to make screen reading revolutionary again.  Better
question even if we could do we really want to.  I have been using
windows now for 21 year way back in 1992 with slimware window bridge.
Back then everything was a innovation.  It was exciting.  Beta testing
in the 90s for bridge later on public betas of window-eyes and jaws. 
This
was fun. It still is fun.
Seeing what new things are offered to us and make life better and
providing us with an accessible digital life style.
While the innovation was fun exciting and interesting half the time it
didn't work right so there was a mix of a lot of fun and excitement
with lots of frustration.  The frustration at times is till there.
How-ever it is no where near the level it once was.  So no at this
point the screen readers don't need major inovations.  They need a
constent evolution to get better and more stable.
The question is is this happening.  With NVDA it is.  Bugs are being 
fixed
all the time.  The package keeps getting better and better. Gw micro is
doing the same with window-eyes we are seeing the package getting
better with every relece.
Jaws is a package that is getting better as well.  So we are seeing
the evolution of these packages.
New features capability and access being added.
Now lets talk about bug fixing.  The most important thing to think
about when you get to the evolutionary faze is bug fixing and 
stability.
NVDA as I said fixes bug and becomes more stable all the time. Jaws
has stability issues how-ever they provide releaces quite often to fix
bugs they find in the package.  Gw micro on the other hand is a little
slower to do this.  So we don't see has many bugs fixes coming from in
house to you the
user.   That being said when we do get the bug fixes they fix the bugs.
Also we have to note that NVDA can afford a faster relece cycle and it
is always in public beta and you can use the beta snap shots at any
time.  They can do this because of the nature of open sorce. Enough
has been written else where that I will not bother to explain this
here.  Fs can afford to relece faster yes because they are larger.
Even though they relece faster many of the bugs that they must be able
to reproduce that have been around for years don't get fixed. Can
anyone say dectalk access 32.  Fs synth 32 crashing on windows 64 bit
systems and jaws getting unloaded in all kinds of situations for no
reason.  You know they can reproduce this and they still have not fixed
the problem. If gw can reproduce the problem gw fixes it.
This being said some long standing bugs in window-eyes still have not
gotten fixed.
So to sum it up.  We are in a evolutionary faze of windows screen
rding programs.  Evalution is on going.  Features and access is being
added.  Bug fixing is on going.
The three in bug fixing at the moment rank as follows.  This is my
view and my view only.  NVAccess NVDA GW micro and window-eyes.  Even
though the cycle is slower more long standing bugs get fixed. Finely fs
and jaws.
Lots of bugs are fixed faster relece cycle but long standing bugs that
have been there for years are not fixed.  Now the mobile situation is
another matter and beyond the  scoap of this message.

-----Original Message-----
From: Butch Bussen [mailto:but...@shellworld.net]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 6:28 PM
To: josh n rivera
Cc: w4...@bellsouth.net; gw-info@gwmicro.com
Subject: Re: Opinions Of A Former AT Software Engineer

Wow!!!!  hundreds of blind folks just waiting for screen readers to
catch up to get a job.  That certainly wasn't the problem when many of
us blind were looking for jobs in Nebvada.  The biggest hurdle we face
is prejudice by sighted people.  Perhaps you've peaked in the window
and seen gw micro staff just sitting around.  hmmmmm.
73
Butch
WA0VJR
Node 3148
Wallace, ks.


On Mon, 12 Aug 2013,
josh n rivera wrote:

Wow!
These articles were quite revealing, to put it mildly. It's sad to
see that the two main screen readers out there are, seemingly,
sitting on their back-sides, just coasting, while hundreds of blind
persons are out there unable to find employment, because these screen
readers have not kept up.


On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:14:14 -0500 "Gary King" <w4...@bellsouth.net>
writes:
Last night I ran across a couple of interesting articles written by a
former head of Software Engineering of a major assistive technology
company.  Since Window-Eyes was mentioned in the articles in a
historical context, I am passing them along to the list.

http://chrishofstader.com/the-death-of-screen-reader-innovation/

http://chrishofstader.com/screen-reader-failure-innovation-deteriorat
i
on-
despair/

Gary King
w4...@bellsouth.net


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