Re: Opinions Of A Former AT Software Engineer

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 12:44:37 -0700

True enough about the localized versions. I did not include them, since other manufacturers in the comparison that was given, may or may not have localized restrictions. For the ease of the comparison, and without starting the "argue" you wanted to avoid, I simply just compared for English versions inside, and outside the USA. Should we have included the localized versions, we would have to start comparing why one software will be pretty much priced the same as the English version, whilst other dealers multiply the price several times, just to get the stuff localized. The whole comparison chart, then would become more complicated. I did not figure that this would be of interest in this discussion, hence kept my material to the fact of comparing English versions. Hope that clarifies that story. 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Geoffray" <[email protected]>

To: "David" <[email protected]>

Cc: "Jim Grimsby JR." <[email protected]>; "'bob jutzi'" 
<[email protected]>; <[email protected]>

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Opinions Of A Former AT Software Engineer



David,


Given your email started with making sure the information was correct I 
thought I would correct what you said (smile).  I do not want to get into 
a huge flaming war on our policy of copy protection nor all the statements 
from the article which started this thread as that would only fuel the 
individual to write more (smile).



You state that because you live outside the USA your copy of Window-Eyes 
is copy protected.  That simply is not the true story. Our records 
indicate you are using the Norwegian version of Window-Eyes and it is not 
copy protected in any way.  You can install your Norwegian copy on every 
computer in the universe as long as you are the only user using it.  You 
are not limited in the number of computers you can install it on as you 
led to believe.



Now saying that it is true if you purchase an English copy of Window-Eyes 
it is copy protected in most countries outside of the USA.  But the 
localized languages such as your Norwegian version are typically not copy 
protected.  In fact, the number of countries that we do copy protect 
non-English languages can be counted on one hand.


Just thought it was worth making sure the full story was provided.

Doug

On 8/13/2013 2:55 PM, David wrote:

Think you have one piece of wrong info here, and if you want a real 
comparison, please get that one corrected. Smile.



It may be true, that once you buy Window-Eyes, you will have no copy 
protection, and can install it freely on any number of computers you 
want. Well, at least if you live in the USA. But outside the USA - and 
maybe Canada - you will be under copy-restrictions. You then will only be 
allowed to install your copy of Window-Eyes, on a very limited number of 
computers. Once that number has been used, you are back to a discussion 
with GW, why you need to install more copies.



Freedom Scientific may be more restrictive inside the USA, making it more 
balanced for everyone, no matter where you live. You, who live in the 
USA, may find this frustrating and a real drawback. Sorry to say, but 
welcome to the real world. Smile. This is not anything but what those who 
do not live in the States, have to face over and over again. Agreed, it 
would be great to have a better way of getting your rights to use what 
you pay for, and one model may serve better than the other. But as things 
stand, keep this in mind, when you rank your choices.



Besides that, I wish there would be more focus on what we want, and good 
suggestions on how to accomplish it. From what I can see, and I did not 
read the whole set of articles initially refered to, it seems like quite 
a few complains, and not too much solutions. The only thing I really 
found, in the part I did read, was the point about the pricing of 
hardware. Many years in the market, have told me how good products hit 
the market, and could have been real solutions for many - but they are 
way over-priced. And, reality proves itself over and over again, that 
these products only cost a fraction of the price, to manufacture. We are 
told it is a tiny market, and that the dealers and their staff has to 
survive. But when you look at the figures those companies operate with, 
at the end of the year, I guess they have more money in their bank 
account, than most of us ever have had in our hands. I have seen many 
examples of products multiplying their price with five or more, simply 
going from the main office, to one dealer. And, should it happen it has 
to go to another sub-dealer, you will have the price multiplied once 
again. Not only when comes to electronic gadgets, but even when comes to 
aids for the daily living. No wonder, that you are forced to run a high 
budget, when you are shopping for any product for the blind. On that 
point, I am afraid we see same story repeated - even with GW. OK, they 
have their rights to survive ecconomically, but sometimes lowering the 
prices, would have meant a greater sales number, more user-experience to 
base new versions on - and definitely, may result in a higher account 
balance in the end of the year. My wish would have been, if the 
assistitive market, would have realized this. Lowering the profit on each 
sold unit, you could have had a higher number of users. And, that would 
have benefitted the blind users far more, than what is the case today. 
There is certain times, when you come across a company that sells 
products for the impaired, at prices that seem reduced, from what you 
usually would see similar products in the market. In many cases, these 
companies delivers highly functional and good products, but they have 
decided to cut on their profit for each product. If you want but one 
example, in the daily living department, look at:

   www.futureaids.com

and compare the prices to other companies. Wish we had seen certain 
companies inside the computer technology for the blind, take the same 
approach to the market and pricing.




----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Grimsby JR." 
<[email protected]>

To: "'bob jutzi'" <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 4:13 PM
Subject: RE: Opinions Of A Former AT Software Engineer



Well I did think of making the below points.  The point of the message

beyond responding to remark maid buy butch was to point out how the 
screen

readers were evolving.  The below points are more about marketing, and
bringing the screen reading software to the end user.  Now the point has
been brought up I will give my view on this.
How are we being served buy the marketing and cells departments of the
screen reading manufactory.
First www.nvaccess.org well this is clear.  They produce an open sorce

screen reader. They bring you the productfree of charge with the option 
of

donations. They partner with others to bring you prayed options such as
vocalizer expressive.  This is a wonderful model. It makes the software
available to anyone that wants to use it. There are problems with this

approach.  Joe of serotech speaks more eloquently   then I of the 
problems
with this approach.  the main problem is support.  Where do you go if 
you

need help or support for the program.  You can go to the mailing list or

find a 3rd party that might do skype with you to help you with a 
problem.

There is no one from the producer who you can speak live to and get your

problem solved, so in short it is free you get what you pay for in the 
way

of support.

Gw micro and window-eyes.  They have a leace to own package. You pay 
every

month tell you get it paid off.  You then have a SMA that means you are

covered for a few years you then get a SMA that will cover you for 
another
few years.  You only have topay once for what ever version of windows. 
You

can install it on as many computers as you need it.  No copy protection.
System access a subscription model.  You pay yearly or monthly for the

program.  You never get it paid off.  You always have the latest version 
of
the sotware how ever.   The subscription  price is the same no matter 
what

version of the windows software your working with.   You can get other

service's  bundeld with it.  It does have copy protection. There is a 
free

option at www.satogo.com so if you need the software you can get it for

free.  The problem with this it runs in the cloud and so getting it 
started

has a delay factor.
Jaws for windows. No subscription  or leace o to own model.  You pay up
front for the whole pacage you then have to buy a sma.  You pay more
depending on what version  of windows you want to use.

How I would rank the each system.  Gw micro and window eyes. Leace to 
own
once you pay for It it is yours.  You can then pay for a sma when you 
need

one.  You hae support when you need it.   System access serrotek.  You

subscribe to it you have support you also can get a budnel of oher hins 
not

offered  buy anyone else.  In fact I would go so far as to say the main
point of system access is to give you access to those other things.  At

least that is the point the company has in creating it in the first 
place.
One thing you should undersand  is that they produce the screen reader 
that

is not the main focus of the company.

NVDA www.nvaccess.org.  free anyone can get it with paid options offered 
buy

partners.  No in house support.

Jaws for windows  fs.  You pay out the nose over and over you get in 
house

support
  Ok well I hink that covers that


-----Original Message-----
From: bob jutzi [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 6:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Opinions Of A Former AT Software Engineer


A well-written article; however, I wish he would have mentioned the fact 
of
GW being the more user-friendly of the two; example, GW's lease-to-own 
(LTO)

program, only needing to purchase one Window-eyes in order to use all
versions of Windows XP and above, as well as the lack of that stupid
activation nonsense found in all FS software.

On 8/13/2013 8:34 AM, Jim Grimsby JR. wrote:

Yeh and then for those of us who have more then one disability the

problem is conpunded.  Being blind and hearing impaird makes it a nice 
fun

mix.

When you go to an interview and are having problems hearing the person
who is interviewing you and trying to explain how you as a blind
mostly deff person is going to do the job.
He also misses the point in a few places in the article.
He talks about how wonderful NVDA is.  It is truly a wonderful program
and I am glad we have it.  One of the main reasons though NVDA is able
to do as much as it does is because of the work that he basicly
laughed at gw micro for doing.  If they had not helped other companys
for nothing to work with standards NVDA would not now be able to use
those standards to provide the access it does with out video drivers
and the like.  NvAcess is taking the same approach gw micro has taken
in the past and now if we can get the access standard use it will work

with NVDA and window-eyes and even jaws.

The next point this fellow misses is you get to the point in evalution
of a program where revalution is no longer needed. Major inovations is
not really what we need any more. Access is good enough that you now
just need evolution.  Also you get to a point with programs that what
major revalution is realy possible.
I mean lets take Microsoft word.  Getting us out of the screen reader
for the moment.  What major revolutionary ways can Microsoft really

take a word processer at this point.  Ok they went to a ribbon 
interface.

Mixing the

menu and dialog interface.   They took it to the cloud.  That being 
said

you

still write documents the way you always have.
The same is true with your screen reader.  The voices sound better.
The access gets smoother.  More and more programs become accessible.
Some programs get broken and some get fixed some don't.  how then do
we proseed to make screen reading revolutionary again.  Better
question even if we could do we really want to.  I have been using
windows now for 21 year way back in 1992 with slimware window bridge.
Back then everything was a innovation.  It was exciting.  Beta testing

in the 90s for bridge later on public betas of window-eyes and jaws. 
This

was fun. It still is fun.

Seeing what new things are offered to us and make life better and
providing us with an accessible digital life style.
While the innovation was fun exciting and interesting half the time it
didn't work right so there was a mix of a lot of fun and excitement
with lots of frustration.  The frustration at times is till there.
How-ever it is no where near the level it once was.  So no at this
point the screen readers don't need major inovations.  They need a
constent evolution to get better and more stable.

The question is is this happening.  With NVDA it is.  Bugs are being 
fixed

all the time.  The package keeps getting better and better. Gw micro is
doing the same with window-eyes we are seeing the package getting
better with every relece.
Jaws is a package that is getting better as well.  So we are seeing
the evolution of these packages.
New features capability and access being added.
Now lets talk about bug fixing.  The most important thing to think

about when you get to the evolutionary faze is bug fixing and 
stability.

NVDA as I said fixes bug and becomes more stable all the time. Jaws
has stability issues how-ever they provide releaces quite often to fix
bugs they find in the package.  Gw micro on the other hand is a little
slower to do this.  So we don't see has many bugs fixes coming from in

house to you the

user.   That being said when we do get the bug fixes they fix the bugs.
Also we have to note that NVDA can afford a faster relece cycle and it
is always in public beta and you can use the beta snap shots at any
time.  They can do this because of the nature of open sorce. Enough
has been written else where that I will not bother to explain this
here.  Fs can afford to relece faster yes because they are larger.
Even though they relece faster many of the bugs that they must be able
to reproduce that have been around for years don't get fixed. Can
anyone say dectalk access 32.  Fs synth 32 crashing on windows 64 bit
systems and jaws getting unloaded in all kinds of situations for no
reason.  You know they can reproduce this and they still have not fixed

the problem. If gw can reproduce the problem gw fixes it.

This being said some long standing bugs in window-eyes still have not
gotten fixed.
So to sum it up.  We are in a evolutionary faze of windows screen
rding programs.  Evalution is on going.  Features and access is being
added.  Bug fixing is on going.
The three in bug fixing at the moment rank as follows.  This is my
view and my view only.  NVAccess NVDA GW micro and window-eyes.  Even
though the cycle is slower more long standing bugs get fixed. Finely fs

and jaws.

Lots of bugs are fixed faster relece cycle but long standing bugs that
have been there for years are not fixed.  Now the mobile situation is
another matter and beyond the  scoap of this message.

-----Original Message-----
From: Butch Bussen [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 6:28 PM
To: josh n rivera
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: Opinions Of A Former AT Software Engineer

Wow!!!!  hundreds of blind folks just waiting for screen readers to
catch up to get a job.  That certainly wasn't the problem when many of
us blind were looking for jobs in Nebvada.  The biggest hurdle we face
is prejudice by sighted people.  Perhaps you've peaked in the window
and seen gw micro staff just sitting around.  hmmmmm.
73
Butch
WA0VJR
Node 3148
Wallace, ks.


On Mon, 12 Aug 2013,
josh n rivera wrote:


Wow!
These articles were quite revealing, to put it mildly. It's sad to
see that the two main screen readers out there are, seemingly,
sitting on their back-sides, just coasting, while hundreds of blind
persons are out there unable to find employment, because these screen
readers have not kept up.


On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 10:14:14 -0500 "Gary King" <[email protected]>
writes:
Last night I ran across a couple of interesting articles written by a
former head of Software Engineering of a major assistive technology
company.  Since Window-Eyes was mentioned in the articles in a
historical context, I am passing them along to the list.

http://chrishofstader.com/the-death-of-screen-reader-innovation/

http://chrishofstader.com/screen-reader-failure-innovation-deteriorat
i
on-
despair/

Gary King
[email protected]


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