Hello all, happy civil new year (and indeed, may the world be more civil this year…).
Just writing to resume the below conversation. I’m not sure we ever reached a consensus regards the Romanization of פסיפס. Please advise. Thanks, Jasmin From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Shtuhl, Smadar Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 12:06 PM To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question Yossi, I took the examples from Alcalay to demonstrate the inconsistencies it presents and the confusion that goes with them. And - my name should indeed be Romainzed Semadar but I write Smadar since no one pronounces it with a sheva na. Smadar On 11/11/2015 11:18 AM, Yossi Galron wrote: Semadar (or do you prefer Smadar :-) The examples you brought are not according to the practice we were using and are not "correct", but in general I support the discussion and we need to reconsider the matter. Kol tuv Yossi [also not according to the rules] On Nov 11, 2015 11:10 AM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>> wrote: I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have over ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah genetit, psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also pesikhologyah shimushit without any visible reason for the difference. Likewise, there is pesikhopati but ishiyut psikhopatit. This inconsistency confuses matters. Smadar On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish wrote: Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an authority. Maybe those two cases are typos. So right now we have: kriminologyah statistiskah but deramah. psikhologyah psikhi, etc. but pesefas. Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva under the first letter. The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as loan words and not put in the sheva na. Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How would a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule? I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or pesefas. I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular. Barry Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D. Judaica Specialist University of Toronto Libraries Toronto, ON M5S 1A5 Canada ________________________________ From: Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu>] on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he went to a valid reference work. Bes, Heidi Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are quite clear: The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-. ALA-LC Romanization: Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah. ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה. Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah. אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה but: deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama] A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable. be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland) Heidi G. Lerner Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica Metadata Dept. Stanford University Libraries Stanford, CA 94305-6004 ph: 650-725-9953<tel:650-725-9953> fax: 650-725-1120<tel:650-725-1120> e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu> ________________________________ From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu><mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner <jarov...@jtsa.edu><mailto:jarov...@jtsa.edu> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages. I have only Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition treats pesefas and deramah as Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing the first consonant with a sheva, which it does not do for psikholog. This is not a question of etymology, but of usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce the sheva of pesafas if only because that helps them accent the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of other mobile shevas, ones thatwe do -- and do not -- regard in our Romanizing). JR Jay Rovner, PhD Manuscript Bibliographer The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary 5501 Library 3080 Broadway New York City, New York 10027 (212) 678-8045 Please note: The JTS Library’s archives are temporarily to accommodate packing of our Special Collections in advance of our rebuilding project. The archives will reopen on January 4, 2016, in the Temporary Library located on the 7th floor of JTS’s Kripke and Schiff buildings. The Special Collections are closed for approximately four years. Reference services for the Special Collections will continue throughout this period. Please be sure to check for digital copies of manuscripts and rare books. For help in finding what you might need, please email sadiam...@jtsa.edu<mailto:sadiam...@jtsa.edu> or s...@jtsa.edu<mailto:s...@jtsa.edu> with Special Collections requests, or our reference librarians<mailto:libr...@jtsa.edu> or visit the Library’s website<http://www.jtsa.edu/The_Library.xml>. From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Jasmin Shinohara Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM To: heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question Agreed, Neil. Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts with a psi. Does that make any difference to how we want to treat it? On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote: … which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO. Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D. Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger McKeldin Library University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Phone (301) 405-9337<tel:%28301%29%20405-9337> nf...@umd.edu<mailto:nf...@umd.edu> From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Yossi Galron Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question Heidi, I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas. Yossi On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>> wrote: Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi. Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize פסיפס as "psefas" Best, Heidi Heidi G. Lerner Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica Metadata Dept. Stanford University Libraries Stanford, CA 94305-6004 ph: 650-725-9953<tel:650-725-9953> fax: 650-725-1120<tel:650-725-1120> e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu> ________________________________ From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron <jgal...@gmail.com<mailto:jgal...@gmail.com>> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question I wouldn't change our practice. Just lazy. Yossi On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>> wrote: Hi all, We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of foreign-loan words. Can we get to any agreement about how to Romanize the word פסיפס? Thanks, Smadar -- Smadar Shtuhl Hebraica Library Specialist University of Pennsylvania Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center 3420 Walnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206 F. 215-573-9610<tel:215-573-9610> ssht...@upenn.edu<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu> _______________________________________________ Heb-naco mailing list Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco _______________________________________________ Heb-naco mailing list Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco _______________________________________________ Heb-naco mailing list Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco _______________________________________________ Heb-naco mailing list Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco -- Smadar Shtuhl Hebraica Library Specialist University of Pennsylvania Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center 3420 Walnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206 F. 215-573-9610<tel:215-573-9610> ssht...@upenn.edu<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu> _______________________________________________ Heb-naco mailing list Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco _______________________________________________ Heb-naco mailing list Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco -- Smadar Shtuhl Hebraica Library Specialist University of Pennsylvania Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center 3420 Walnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206 F. 215-573-9610 ssht...@upenn.edu<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>
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