For the record, I only said it was deramati as a joke, not implying it is the same rule
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+nfraucortes=broward....@lists.osu.edu> On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 2:37 PM To: Galron, Joseph <galro...@osu.edu>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] קלוקלים External Email Warning: This email originated from outside the Broward County email system. Do not reply, click links, or open attachments unless you recognize the sender’s email address (not just the name) as legitimate and know the content is safe. Report any suspicious emails to etssecur...@broward.org<mailto:etssecur...@broward.org>. The email chain below has combined different issues. דרמתי, as Yossi wrote, is of Greek/Latin origin and is romanized following HCM-RDA instructions on foreign loan words, p.17: “In the case of foreign loan words of Latin or Greek origin, Alcalay should not be followed, and an initial consonantal cluster is treated as a sheṿa naḥ.” קלוקלים is a Hebrew word and is romanized following HCM-RDA instructions on sheṿa, pp. 15-17, copied here: The transcription of the sheṿa is problematic. The ALA-LC Romanization system attempts to approximate standard Israeli pronunciation throughout the romanization process while at the same time reflecting the general principles of traditional Hebrew grammar. Obviously, this is a difficult gap to bridge. Other considerations to keep in mind are the basic continuity of romanization practice in spite of profound cataloging changes over the years on the one hand, and the accessibility of one’s data on the other. Although there are only a few systems where capitalization practice or the presence or absence of a diacritic or special character will affect retrieval per se, the romanization or non-romanization of a vowel is quite another matter. Alcalay is useful for the identification of sheṿa naḥ (quiescent) and sheṿa na‘ (mobile) in that he usually does not transcribe the sheṿa naḥ in his vocalization scheme. With regard to the romanization or non-romanization of the sheṿa na‘, there are several principles to be kept in mind. All sheṿas in Hebrew initial syllables are sheṿa na‘ and are transcribed as "e" regardless of pronunciation. teḳufah [not: tḳufah (era)] תקופה teshuvah [not: tshuvah (response)] תשובה There are however, at least two categories of sheṿa na‘ in which the romanization system attempts to follow generally accepted pronunciation a little more closely. Both categories consist of cases of sheṿa na‘ which result from what some linguists call “vowel reduction.” The first and most easily definable of these categories is the sheṿa occurring between the second and third consonants of the plural forms of benoni (participles, nouns, etc. having the same vowel pattern) and other verb forms of the pa‘al/ḳal, pi‘el, and hitpa‘el binyanim (stems), including all sheṿas following consonants with dagesh ḥazaḳ. Exceptions apply if the lamed ha-po’al (third consonant of the root) is the same as the second (‘ayin ha-po‘al), or if the second consonant is a yod (‘ayin-yod pattern). lomdim [not: lomedim] לומדים lomdot [not: lomedot] לומדות from: lomed לומד rof’im [not: rofe’im] רופאים rof’ot [not: rofe’ot] רופאות from: rofe רופאים munḥe [not: muneḥe] מונחי from: munaḥim מונחים tedabru [not: tedaberu] תדברו tedabri [not: tedaberi] תדברי from: tedaber תדבר mitsṭarfim [not: mitsṭarefim] מצטרפים mitsṭarfot [not: mitsṭarefot] מצטרפות from: mitsṭaref מצטרף … (highlights added for emphasis/easy browsing) קלוקל falls into the above category. Hence, ḳeloḳlim, not: ḳeloḳelim or ḳloḳlim (from: ḳeloḳel). Thanks, Jasmin From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn....@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn....@lists.osu.edu>> On Behalf Of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 1:41 PM To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] קלוקלים I agree with Barry – it should be Kelokelim and not Keloklim or Kloklim. It is a Hebrew word. It is not the same as Dramati (that is a non-Hebrew word) From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Barry Dov Walfish via Heb-naco Sent: Monday, February 07, 2022 11:48 PM To: Shinohara, Jasmin <jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu<mailto:jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] קלוקלים Hi, Jasmin, The rule seems to be that if in the singular base word the letter in question has a vowel underneath it, then, in the plural the sheva is a sheva na. So, since the sing. is kelokel, with tsere under the kof, then the plural should be kelokelim. See: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2013/09/01/**I-**G-**K/__;16LXmden16jXmdeq15XXqNeq15TXoNeZ16fXldeT!!KGKeukY!lkoVYIjO7SveDleEcG0MJYGRvMH0E-cG2gU3GL-4n4Pd5iOaKzfk9TK_bMzHup41d7iP$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/hebrew-academy.org.il/2013/09/01/**I-**G-**K/__;16LXmden16jXmdeq15XXqNeq15TXoNeZ16fXldeT!!KGKeukY!kfyp455q_TPBY6DDi9TdY5pTxdZfi2EiioJlp5K5FC7qtCWMurG2Lb2MsMFy_NzmQJio$> Hope this helps, Best, Barry On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 11:29 PM Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote: Hi, all, The above is found in a couple titles by Toviyah Rubner (and is cited from him in the E.-Sh. entry for word). It has historically been romanized as ḳeloḳelim. My question is, why is the sheva under the second kof romanized as though it were a vocalized sheva? As a sheva merahef, wouldn’t it be ignored and the word romanized ḳeloḳlim? Looking forward to your input. Thanks, Jasmin --- Jasmin Shinohara Hebraica Cataloging Librarian University of Pennsylvania 131 Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center 3420 Walnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206 T. 215-746-6397 jsh...@upenn.edu<mailto:jsh...@upenn.edu> Coordinator, Hebraica BIBCO, NACO, & SACO Funnels _______________________________________________ Heb-naco mailing list Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco__;!!IBzWLUs!CTkPGCSIUCBYvPKFmrG8Qx3sKGmRQQQqWqSvhaQ_eidzHqcPqD5rK7_ppJcV5_Ym86nB$> ________________________________ Under Florida law, most e-mail messages to or from Broward County employees or officials are public records, available to any person upon request, absent an exemption. 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