Hello, just few comments that I hope are not extremely flammable :-).
> who don't [...] review changes before > they are merged For the record, the PR was marked as work-in-progress, so I assumed changes to other parts (harbours and CI) would (naturally) come later. It was during summer break and some of us are not able to respond in the two week window that was there between PR open and merge. Not complaining, two weeks should be generally enough. But my concern about breaking other things is still valid. As another example, Travis on Harbours is broken. > and you explicitly refused that the access > [to CI] can be arranged I do not see how access to the machine where CI is executed would remedy this situation. And the reasons for not giving access are really out of my control. > think Travis is sufficient for now I do not think so. Travis has 2h timeout that is not sufficient to test everything (especially for in-QEMU tests). Travis does not offer any kind of artifacts publication natively. We would need to push to some other services, from my experience with other project the network bandwidth is quite limited here and it may not work reliably. But I have no hard numbers for this. > replace the whole CI entirely I would like to hear more feedback on this. Seriously. If I am the only one that feels that ci.helenos.org and the things that are reported/tested there are of sufficient relevance/importance to justify its existence, I would stop maintaining this and shut the machine down. No bad feelings, just let me know. Thanks, - Vojta st 13. 11. 2019 v 15:14 odesílatel Jiri Svoboda <[email protected]> napsal: > > I think there was a little bit of misunderstanding here. Everybody makes > mistakes - we cannot always catch all bugs. And I was not complaining about > Meson, just replying to Jakub's comments on fixing things 'later'. What I > meant was we should never break things knowingly. > > Also I think we will agree that putting up a change for review does not free > you up from the responsibility of testing it., as other people will usually > look at the code, but not necessarily try it out (which, in this case, we > should have). > > Also my comments on missing features were not complaints, I just plainly > stated that these are areas where we are lacking and might need looking into. > > Cheers, > Jiri > ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- > Od: Jiří Zárevúcky <[email protected]> > Komu: HelenOS development mailing list <[email protected]> > Datum: 13. 11. 2019 14:56:41 > Předmět: Re: [HelenOS-devel] Notes on last CI update > > I apologize for my previous two messages. They are emotionally charged. > Let's talk about how we can improve the "process" once I've cooled > down a little. > > -- jzr > > On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 14:37, Jiří Zárevúcky <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 13:50, Jiri Svoboda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Jakub, > > > > > > I think we need to consider a few more things. The switch to Meson was a > > > big change and IMHO the outcome is overall very good and I am happy > > > about it. > > > > > > I think we regressed in a few more areas, the old build system made it > > > easy to look at disassembly and at examine object files. Also what about > > > "make check"? I think these are areas that may still need some work. > > > > > > > Yes, it needs more work to reach "full capacity", so to speak. Does > > that mean the changes should be held until everyone has checked if > > things work to their expectation? That would make sense if people > > actually responded to review requests. As far as I can tell, actually > > merging the changes is the only way to get reasonable feedback here, > > and even then it's months before that feedback happens. > > > > > > > > Also, we are not a professional/commercial software house with paid > > > developers and customers. We can afford to fix things later. And in > > > general we do and have always done. > > > > > > Quite to the contary. While our software does not fly airplanes, since we > > > *don't* have the paid people who can be tasked with fixing breakages. We > > > simply cannot afford to tolerate breakages postponing the fixes for > > > "later" (effectively fo somebody else). This will only frustrate the > > > handful contributors we have. > > > > > > > Switching to Meson is a massive and fundamental change. You cannot > > reasonably expect one person to first make sure everything works > > perfectly. Not to mention that the notion of perfection is subjective. > > If you want to talk about frustration, consider for a second how > > frustrating it is to make changes when there's people who don't care > > enough to review changes before they are merged, then wait months, and > > then crawl out of woodwork complaining about how it's frustrating > > *them* that massive changes they didn't give two shits about aren't > > perfect right of the bat. > > > > > We cannot make exceptions to this rule, be it for desirability of a > > > featre, "momentum" of HelenOS camp or anything else. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Jiri > > > > > > > > > Jakub > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Jiri > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- > > > > Od: Vojtech Horky <[email protected]> > > > > Komu: HelenOS development mailing list <[email protected]> > > > > Datum: 12. 11. 2019 23:35:58 > > > > Předmět: [HelenOS-devel] Notes on last CI update > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I have updated CI scripts on the CI server and new build just finished. > > > > > > > > TL;DR: Follows about 5 paragraphs of complaints and shed tears ;-). > > > > Ended by brief summary of the last build. > > > > > > > > First of all, I understand that everyone is working on HelenOS in his > > > > spare time but I do not think that should be an excuse for breaking > > > > things and creating extra load on others. I acknowledge that I am > > > > responsible for ci.helenos.org and that my lack of time caused that it > > > > was in such bad shape recently. But at least some things could have > > > > been prevented. > > > > > > > > Please, next time when there is such a big update (I mean things like > > > > Meson etc.) it would be nice if someone would contact me in advance. > > > > You know, just a short e-mail "hey, could you try this on CI machine > > > > before we merge it into mainline so we have seamless transition?". And > > > > yes, I am receiving e-mails from GitHub but automated notifications > > > > simply got lower priority than normal e-mail. > > > > > > > > It would be also nice if changes to the build system would be > > > > propagated to other repositories too. CI script was broken for about 2 > > > > months, the hotfix from 99d248b is not really complete. Not dwelling > > > > on the fact that we needed two rounds of e-mails before the problem > > > > was even acknowledged. > > > > > > > > @le-jzr: have you ever tried to run the CI script or you do just > > > > search-and-replace when "fixing" it? I understand that it is not a > > > > ten-liner any more but we do not have anything better at the moment. > > > > Or do we? > > > > > > > > And this is really not the first time similar thing has happened. > > > > Honestly, it just kills my motivation to work on HelenOS. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding last build: > > > > > > > > HelenOS seems to be built okay, tests with bare images are more or > > > > less fine too. > > > > > > > > Some harbours are failing as before, gzx, msim and sycek are broken > > > > for all platforms. > > > > > > > > It seems that building extended images (e.g. HelenOS with binutils) is > > > > broken as all tests fail with "command not found". > > > > > > > > As an improvement, it would be nice if ninja inside CI would not be > > > > that smart about parallelism level. The jobs are already running in > > > > parallel and running the inner build in parallel too only increases > > > > the chances that the build would fail. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > - Vojta > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > HelenOS-devel mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > HelenOS-devel mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > HelenOS-devel mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > HelenOS-devel mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > _______________________________________________ > HelenOS-devel mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > _______________________________________________ > HelenOS-devel mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel _______________________________________________ HelenOS-devel mailing list [email protected] http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel
