Hi Jiri > though, really, I wished we had the dog
I cannot argue with that haha > claiming it is not possible to manage everything in one repo and it's what > "Linux" does ^_^ He is not wrong. Linux does it like that and it is not possible to manage it IF THE QUANTITY OF PUBLISHED CODE IS TOO LARGE. He forgot the last part apparently :) Since the amount of code published to HelenOS is moderately low I dont think there is any need to have many repositories. > and what would go into the "stable" branch? If nothing, there is no merit in > it As written in the the previous mail. Only when there is a rollout (new version) the commits from unstable gets pushed into stable. When there are failures around the bugfixes would be pushed into the stable as well - or a discussion occurs if a certain feature should not make the cut for the new rollout. The main points I tried to make is: 1) Ensuring every important developer can confirm correctness of his part of the project (when there is a rollout) 2) Limiting „mail floods“ of unimportant changes (filtering by branch should be possible) 3) Creating a synergy of time and resources for when it is important (see point 1) 4) guaranteeing some functional stability (limiting the areas effected by an bug) while still providing freedom to developer How this can be achieved is up to your imagination. Maybe instead of having a stable and unstable branch it would make more sense to create separat branches ONLY (!!!!) when it is known/expected to break the system. Hence, in case of the Meson this should have been a separat branch until the rollout and everyone gives their OK Regards, Matthieu > Am 24.11.2019 um 19:02 schrieb Jiri Svoboda <[email protected]>: > > Hi Matthieu, > > and what would go into the "stable" branch? If nothing, there is no merit in > it. Just bug fixes, i.e. it would be a 'support' branch? We've no need for > that since we are not really supporting any users. > > Reminds me of years back when somebody (was it Tim Post?) suggested we should > split HelenOS into many soruce code repositories (kernel, ...) claiming it is > not possible to manage everything in one repo and it's what "Linux" does ^_^. > > I am noting the above just to illustrate that it makes no sense to > over-manage a project that's being run by three guys and a dog (though, > really, I wished we had the dog). We're lucky to have any commits at all, so > introducing multiple branches, doing back-ports, etc. ..yeah.. sure. > > Cheers, > Jiri > > ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- > Od: Matthieu Riolo <[email protected]> > Komu: HelenOS development mailing list <[email protected]> > Datum: 24. 11. 2019 18:13:47 > Předmět: Re: [HelenOS-devel] Notes on last CI update > > Hey everyone > > Wouldnt this problem partially be solved if HelenOS had two branches? An > unstable one (master) and a stable one (versions). All PR would go into > master. When there is a rollout for a new version the master branch would be > merged into versions and tagged there. Of course before every new version all > of the lead developers would be asked to verify if their part of the project > is working. This would cover the problem which Vojtech encountered as he was > not informed about an important change. If a part of the lead developers do > not work properly then the new version would be delayed - not great but also > not horrible bad. > > In our situation this would have meant that the CI in master would indeed be > broken but not the last official version which is located in versions. This > would be acceptable since it would be broken in an environment where we > expect it to break (the "fix it later“-stance). Using two branches would make > the testing-workflow more clear and the error can be limited in its range. > > I’m not proposing to run tests only when enrolling a new version! Tests > should be done continuously!!! But there should be some sort of major > test/confirmation which involves all parties. This would allow members to > push aggressively for a PR while the lead developers can ensure some > stability by using properly timed communication. It is understandable and > acceptable that some of you have a reaction time of a month or more. But this > can be solved with timing/communication. > > Cheers, Matthieu > > PS: Alternatively all of the tests of the lead developers can be done for > every PR itself. But this would be way more time consuming… > > > Am 13.11.2019 um 15:12 schrieb Jiri Svoboda <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>>: > > I think there was a little bit of misunderstanding here. Everybody makes > mistakes - we cannot always catch all bugs. And I was not complaining about > Meson, just replying to Jakub's comments on fixing things 'later'. What I > meant was we should never break things knowingly. > > Also I think we will agree that putting up a change for review does not free > you up from the responsibility of testing it., as other people will usually > look at the code, but not necessarily try it out (which, in this case, we > should have). > > Also my comments on missing features were not complaints, I just plainly > stated that these are areas where we are lacking and might need looking into. > > Cheers, > Jiri > ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- > Od: Jiří Zárevúcky <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Komu: HelenOS development mailing list <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Datum: 13. 11. 2019 14:56:41 > Předmět: Re: [HelenOS-devel] Notes on last CI update > > I apologize for my previous two messages. They are emotionally charged. > Let's talk about how we can improve the "process" once I've cooled > down a little. > > -- jzr > > On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 14:37, Jiří Zárevúcky <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 at 13:50, Jiri Svoboda <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Jakub, > > > > > > I think we need to consider a few more things. The switch to Meson was a > > > big change and IMHO the outcome is overall very good and I am happy > > > about it. > > > > > > I think we regressed in a few more areas, the old build system made it > > > easy to look at disassembly and at examine object files. Also what about > > > "make check"? I think these are areas that may still need some work. > > > > > > > Yes, it needs more work to reach "full capacity", so to speak. Does > > that mean the changes should be held until everyone has checked if > > things work to their expectation? That would make sense if people > > actually responded to review requests. As far as I can tell, actually > > merging the changes is the only way to get reasonable feedback here, > > and even then it's months before that feedback happens. > > > > > > > > Also, we are not a professional/commercial software house with paid > > > developers and customers. We can afford to fix things later. And in > > > general we do and have always done. > > > > > > Quite to the contary. While our software does not fly airplanes, since we > > > *don't* have the paid people who can be tasked with fixing breakages. We > > > simply cannot afford to tolerate breakages postponing the fixes for > > > "later" (effectively fo somebody else). This will only frustrate the > > > handful contributors we have. > > > > > > > Switching to Meson is a massive and fundamental change. You cannot > > reasonably expect one person to first make sure everything works > > perfectly. Not to mention that the notion of perfection is subjective. > > If you want to talk about frustration, consider for a second how > > frustrating it is to make changes when there's people who don't care > > enough to review changes before they are merged, then wait months, and > > then crawl out of woodwork complaining about how it's frustrating > > *them* that massive changes they didn't give two shits about aren't > > perfect right of the bat. > > > > > We cannot make exceptions to this rule, be it for desirability of a > > > featre, "momentum" of HelenOS camp or anything else. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Jiri > > > > > > > > > Jakub > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Jiri > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- > > > > Od: Vojtech Horky <[email protected] > > > > <mailto:[email protected]>> > > > > Komu: HelenOS development mailing list <[email protected] > > > > <mailto:[email protected]>> > > > > Datum: 12. 11. 2019 23:35:58 > > > > Předmět: [HelenOS-devel] Notes on last CI update > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I have updated CI scripts on the CI server and new build just finished. > > > > > > > > TL;DR: Follows about 5 paragraphs of complaints and shed tears ;-). > > > > Ended by brief summary of the last build. > > > > > > > > First of all, I understand that everyone is working on HelenOS in his > > > > spare time but I do not think that should be an excuse for breaking > > > > things and creating extra load on others. I acknowledge that I am > > > > responsible for ci.helenos.org <http://ci.helenos.org/> and that my > > > > lack of time caused that it > > > > was in such bad shape recently. But at least some things could have > > > > been prevented. > > > > > > > > Please, next time when there is such a big update (I mean things like > > > > Meson etc.) it would be nice if someone would contact me in advance. > > > > You know, just a short e-mail "hey, could you try this on CI machine > > > > before we merge it into mainline so we have seamless transition?". And > > > > yes, I am receiving e-mails from GitHub but automated notifications > > > > simply got lower priority than normal e-mail. > > > > > > > > It would be also nice if changes to the build system would be > > > > propagated to other repositories too. CI script was broken for about 2 > > > > months, the hotfix from 99d248b is not really complete. Not dwelling > > > > on the fact that we needed two rounds of e-mails before the problem > > > > was even acknowledged. > > > > > > > > @le-jzr: have you ever tried to run the CI script or you do just > > > > search-and-replace when "fixing" it? I understand that it is not a > > > > ten-liner any more but we do not have anything better at the moment. > > > > Or do we? > > > > > > > > And this is really not the first time similar thing has happened. > > > > Honestly, it just kills my motivation to work on HelenOS. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding last build: > > > > > > > > HelenOS seems to be built okay, tests with bare images are more or > > > > less fine too. > > > > > > > > Some harbours are failing as before, gzx, msim and sycek are broken > > > > for all platforms. > > > > > > > > It seems that building extended images (e.g. HelenOS with binutils) is > > > > broken as all tests fail with "command not found". > > > > > > > > As an improvement, it would be nice if ninja inside CI would not be > > > > that smart about parallelism level. The jobs are already running in > > > > parallel and running the inner build in parallel too only increases > > > > the chances that the build would fail. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > - Vojta > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > HelenOS-devel mailing list > > > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > > > <http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > HelenOS-devel mailing list > > > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > > > <http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > HelenOS-devel mailing list > > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > > <http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > HelenOS-devel mailing list > > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > > <http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel> > > _______________________________________________ > HelenOS-devel mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > _______________________________________________ > HelenOS-devel mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > > _______________________________________________ > HelenOS-devel mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel > _______________________________________________ > HelenOS-devel mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel
_______________________________________________ HelenOS-devel mailing list [email protected] http://lists.modry.cz/listinfo/helenos-devel
