Sorry, you have not understood my point. A comparison between amateur groups &
professional high ranking orchestras is NOT possible. Nobody was talking about
that.
But it is necessary to keep a certain order in ALL hobbies to find
satisfaction. Just playing if one wants playing will never be enough. I know,
that just a bit practice with etudes or exercises or long tones or scales seems
to exceed the patience of such candidates, but THEY ALSO have to understand,
that these exercises etc. are necessary to create a just so-so level, where
musicians & audience can find satisfaction (musicians) & joy (audience,
musicians).
Is it so difficult for amateurs, to do some ear training using a tuning device
for a few bucks ? Why not spending a few bucks to improve, saving it from heavy
food consumption (just one way) ?
If you do that, you will have much more fun with your playing.
But please, forget comparing yourself with with top professionals, but keep
them as your idols.
Those who restart playing many years after high school, which is not the best
music training, have to realize, that they have never the chance to arrive at
pro level, and it is not necessary at all.
I work with amateurs & elder people (like myself) too, so to know these
problems first hand.
But they have to try to arrive at a level which seems acceptable.
Conductors occupied with tuning at the main part of the rehearsal, are useless
when it comes to playing, as they are frustrated completely. And the same will
happen every rehearsal the same, beginning from bottom ever & ever again.
No, the conductors have to convince their band, to work at least the basics of
intonation at home.
I found also, the more qualified some computer experts might be, the more they
refuse to work
these basics for their hobby. And that is wrong absolutely.
Will be continued.
Am 25.04.2011 um 23:53 schrieb Carlisle Landel:
> Hans,
>
> I'm an amateur, about as far from your abilities and experience as one can
> possibly get. But I have to chime in here.
>
> The vast majority of people who play instruments, like the vast majority of
> people who play sports, will never attain professional status. Yet they
> still like to play to their abilities. Community music gives them an outlet
> for their hobby/avocation/musical abilities.
>
> With community groups, you will naturally get vast differences in ability and
> commitment. Some are a place for people to make noise, others places for
> people to make music, and *some* are places for people to get *better* at
> playing music. But you should not scoff at any of these types of groups, if
> for no other reason that, in almost every case, these are made up of people
> who love music, and as such form a good portion of the audience that gives
> professionals their jobs.
>
> It is in the latter types of groups, that is, groups where the members work
> at becoming better musicians, where a good director/musical educator can
> really have an impact. They can help do the ear training of the kind to
> which Walt and Steve refer. A director having each person play a tuning note
> and then letting each one know if they are sharp or flat is at least
> implicitly giving a little bit of ear training instruction (though of course
> it is better to be explicit instead of allowing this to be a crutch for those
> who refuse to listen, since as you so rightly point out this isn't going to
> help with all the other notes or with ensemble listening and tuning). In one
> of the community bands in which I play, the conductor once made an explicit
> effort to work on ensemble tuning, to great effect and with the result that
> the members enjoyed making music that much more.
>
> If it weren't for the availability of community ensembles, I would never have
> rekindled my love of the instrument, purchased a horn, devoted time to the
> craft of playing, purchased music and recordings, attended seminars, paid for
> repair/maintenance work to my instrument, nor sought out live performances to
> the degree I do now. (Nor would I have become a {lurkng} member of this
> online community, nor would I ever had the chance to read your -and I'm being
> dead serious here- always informative, entertaining and thought-provoking
> posts.) Sure, some of these community groups are are musically poor, but
> others are quite good, and it is possible to find anything within the gamut.
> All of them, however, and especially those that encourage and nurture the
> musicianship of their musicians, deserve accolades, not derision. (Well, OK,
> we can scoff at those who are terrible, know they are terrible, and don't
> care that they are terrible.)
>
> Back to lurking mode,
>
> Carlisle
>
>
>
> On Apr 25, 2011, at 4:14 PM, Walter Lewis wrote:
>
>> Hans,
>>
>> I do one of these groups in my home city mainly because I am a member of the
>> City's Cultural Commission. The group was good for the quality of musicians
>> that we have involved. In my particular case, there are many professional
>> music educators that play in the band for various reasons, some to keep
>> their skills sharp, some just because of their incredible love of music of
>> any kind. We also have such folks as car salesmen, a gentleman that owns a
>> car restoration business, dentists, accountants and some folks that
>> retirees.Until this year, my second hornist was 89 years old and still
>> played very well, but his health declined. We (the entire band) miss him
>> very much! The Band also has the housewives that are wanting to get away
>> from the house and family for a little "me time".
>>
>> Our former Director is a Professor at one of Detroit's larger Universities
>> His title is Director of Bands. He's now left us after 25 years, and the
>> band is in transition as we are in the process of finding a new director.
>> Last year, the Band attended a festival of Bands in the Detroit Area and was
>> directed by Leonard Slatkin, Music Director of the Detroit Symphony
>> Orchestra. For many, it was a thrill of their lives to play under such a
>> fine conductor, and they really elevated their level of performance. One of
>> the pieces they played was Elsa's Procession to the Cathedral (I was not
>> available to play, I am the Principal horn, so my Assistant Principal
>> played). If I remember correctly it's arranged by Eric W G. Leidzen. I got a
>> link of the performance and it was very good.
>>
>> Don't sell these folks short just because they are amateurs. It's those
>> folks that also love music, and they just didn't get the same measure of
>> talent as you and some of the other top notch professionals that are a part
>> of this list. In Germany, do you have such ensembles?
>>
>> I use every opportunity with my students and tell them not to put away
>> their horns when they complete their education, and to play as a way to
>> enjoy themselves and to use this kind of music as a stress reliever in their
>> lives. Here in the US, we desperately need this kind of art, as I feel there
>> is a terrible assault on the Arts and music. Here our misguided politicians
>> want to defund the National Endowment for the Arts and National Public
>> Radio. If those are allowed to die, it will be a horrible blow to the arts
>> in our nation. These community groups still promote arts in local as well as
>> nationally.
>>
>> I know I do spout off with a lot of posts where I firmly have my tongue
>> planted in my cheek, but not this one. My mentor and high school band
>> director was a champion for the Arts when he was alive, and I proudly hold
>> his chair in Warren's Cultural Commission. He also was (no pun intended)
>> instrumental in the formation of the band that I am member of.
>>
>> I am now off to teach lessons, and then a budget meeting to see if our City
>> Council is going to approve our Cultural Commission budget for this coming
>> fiscal year. Please wish us good thoughts!
>>
>> Walt Lewis
>> Warren (Michigan) Cultural Commission
>> Principal Horn, Warren Concert Band
>> Grosse Pointe Symphony Orchestra
>> Member Local 5 AFM
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 4/25/11, Hans Pizka <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> From: Hans Pizka <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Horn 101 Tuning Issues
>> To: "The Horn List" <[email protected]>
>> Date: Monday, April 25, 2011, 3:13 PM
>>
>> Steve, and how about ear training for those members ?
>> What you stated is exactly causing this incredible low
>> level of so many groups.
>>
>> As I remember, you have perfect pitch. How can you bear
>> this plenty of dis-tonation ?
>>
>> Why this refusal to learn, the refusal to bring their "hobby"
>> to a higher level, special this refusal by people, who are superb
>> in their day job ? Many of them think, good or superb in their
>> day profession will make them great in their hobby also.
>>
>> Wrong, perfectly wrong. There they have to start over again & again.
>> Having played in the high school band a year or so is not enough
>> for a community orchestra, might be enough to scare cattle away,
>> if they play in the bushes, but also giving reason for the police or
>> the fire guards to intervene.
>>
>> And there are the absolutely insane programs for those orchestras
>> arranged by megalomaniac self installed conductor tyrants, as they
>> program pieces they would never be allowed to conduct with any
>> professional orchestra. I heard of community orchestras playing
>> Zarathustra, Heldenleben, Mahler 5, Mahler 6 (not to be ruined),
>> Till, Bruckner 4 - 7 - 8, etc. Good for music libraries making
>> some extra income, but not serving that music nor the composer.
>>
>> "Schuster bleib bei Deinem Leisten", an old proverb.
>> or
>> "Dont take in your mouth, what you cannot digest" (without pills !).
>> ###########################################
>> Am 25.04.2011 um 20:43 schrieb Steve Freides:
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Hans Pizka <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Being enthusiastic about playing an instrument, is not enough.
>>>> One also has to care about the basic rules of music and the basic rules
>>>> of music making. It is not that difficult, as long as keeping discipline:
>>>> learning discipline, practice discipline & playing discipline.
>>>
>>> Hans, being enthusiastic, along with a bit of background like having
>>> played in one's high school band _is_ enough to participate in a
>>> community band or orchestra. They are not professional ensembles, and
>>> are often populated by people whose ear would never, in a million
>>> years, entitle them to play in a professional ensemble, but that's
>>> life. Everyone who cares about the basic rules of music making will
>>> not necessarily have the ears to obey those rules.
>>>
>>> These are people who enjoy music and if they need their band director
>>> to help them tune before they play, that should be OK with everyone -
>>> including you, and including their bandmates. If a rare community
>>> group rises to a higher level of playing, that's great, and then there
>>> are auditions and requirements, but that is rare and, more to the
>>> point, it's not why most of community bands and orchestras exist.
>>> Rather, it's about allowing everyone who enjoys making music in a
>>> group setting to do so. If attending such concerts bothers your ears,
>>> stay home.
>>>
>>> -S-
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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