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On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 4:21 AM, Rafael Avila Coya <ravilac...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Rod: > > Don't worry. I didn't take it personally. Only wanted to clarify. > > About automatic notifications, the only services I am aware of are the > itoworld OSM mapper and the whodidit. The first one allows me to have > RSS for areas I want to monitor. The only issue is that it shows changes > in ways and relations, but not nodes (don't know why). > > I'd like to know of better tools to monitor changes in areas. > > Cheers, > > Rafael. > > On 22/11/15 11:23, Rod Bera wrote: > > Hi Rafael, > > > > > > On 21/11/15 17:23, Rafael Avila Coya wrote: > >> Hi, Rod: > >> > >> I already explained what I meant with my revert comments in my answer to > >> Dale, and asked for apologies if I was misunderstood. My comments about > >> revert were that "a ***potential*** revert would be troublesome, but I > >> wasn't meaning that there should happen a revert without asking anybody. > >> In fact, I wasn't aiming at any revert anyway, because, like you, I > >> haven't ever been involved in any mapping in Haiti. > > > > I understood it this way. My observations weren't aimed at you in > > particular. They pertain to us all (including myself, to make it clear). > > > > We are working together this seems obvious but all too easy to forget as > > we are most of the time mapping "face-to-face" with our devices. > > > > As is too easy to forget that everything on the OSM DB is the product of > > millions hours of (wo)man time, and must be respected as such. > > > > We must never delete or reverse lightly, and when we feel the need, this > > should always be discussed extensively before. > > > > There are places for this (mailing lists, wiki, even TM...), but maybe > > we (HOT and OSM) should improve information on where to find these > > discussions. Many newcomers (and even some advanced mappers) never reach > > these forums. > > > > What about automatic notifications when someone is about to map, or has > > previously mapped, an area where substantial changes are planned or have > > just occurred? > > > > > > > >> > >> These past days there was a (still ongoing) thread in the Spanish talk > >> list about how to follow up on some survey point nodes that some users > >> delete from an old import from the IGN (Spanish Ordinance Survey), and I > >> helped them with similar overpass queries that I thought could be of > >> interest for Pierre to check how was the state of the map (buildings) of > >> the area a month ago. That's it. When I answered, I wasn't aware that > >> Dale also answered Pierre; otherwise my answer would probably be > >> different, according to the new info. > > > > Apologies if you took if personally, it definitely wasn't my intention. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Rod > > > > > > > >> > >> I agree with you about all what you say about convivial interaction. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Rafael. > >> > >> On 21/11/15 16:49, Rod Bera wrote: > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> I haven't taken part in mapping in this area, so I don't know about the > >>> details, but what I read looks concerning: large scale deletion, > massive > >>> imports, and substantial reverts are to be discussed with the > community. > >>> This is the base of OSM's collaborative work. > >>> > >>> Therefore I agree with Dale that unilateral reverts should not happen > >>> unless agreed on. But I also point out that no massive deletion should > >>> have happened without prior discussion with the community. > >>> > >>> As to spatial consistency, this is also something that can (must) be > >>> discussed collectively in order to define a coherent line of conduct > >>> (imagery to be used/not > >>> used/corrected/re-georectified/re-georeferenced/...). > >>> > >>> Let's bear in mind that OSM is COLLABORATIVE mapping, and collaboration > >>> is not just about adding up individuals' contributions. > >>> > >>> It is also about inclusive and constructive interaction. > >>> > >>> Convivial* interaction. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> > >>> Rod > >>> > >>> * con vivere [latin] --> living TOGETHER. We Hotties/OSMers/Humans > >>> especially need to improve on this. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 20/11/15 21:00, Dale Kunce wrote: > >>>> Rafael, > >>>> We decided to do large scale deletion for a number of reasons. > >>>> > >>>> * Errors within iD that cause many buildings to be traced several > >>>> times thus resulting in many many overlapping buildings. > >>>> o I personally fixed thousands of overlaps and fixed several > >>>> thousand of other validation errors in the area. > >>>> * Poor spatial consistency between multiple imagery resources > >>>> o Bing > >>>> o 2013 drone imagery > >>>> o 2014 drone imagery > >>>> o 2015 drone imagery > >>>> o Recent GeoEye imagery > >>>> * Lack of existing drone imagery led us to acquire high resolution > >>>> satellite imagery. > >>>> o Imagery isn't nearly as clean and sharp as the drone imagery > >>>> being shot but is consistent throughout the entire area. > >>>> > >>>> *Do not *revert these changes as it represents hundreds of man hours > by > >>>> ARC staff to clean up and fix this area. The area in its current state > >>>> is the most up to date the area *has ever been *due to previous > efforts > >>>> by Haiti Communitaire and the ARC GIS team. We have spent considerable > >>>> time in the field and remotely mapping this area. > >>>> > >>>> Again, for continued questions about these changesets please contact > me > >>>> off-list. > >>>> > >>>> Dale > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Rafael Avila Coya < > ravilac...@gmail.com > >>>> <mailto:ravilac...@gmail.com>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi, Pierre: > >>>> > >>>> I guess this is what the majority of people do, and only the most > >>>> experienced users re-trace objects, also using the replace > geometry tool > >>>> (CTRL+SHIFT+G). It took me long to me to realise about that too. > >>>> > >>>> As usual in these cases, I would contact him to check what > happened, and > >>>> tell him how he should proceed from now on, so he learns the > advantages > >>>> of not deleting objects unless really needed, but improving those > >>>> objects instead. > >>>> > >>>> I've checked the edits by that user, and he made lots of > changesets > >>>> (maybe around hundred), so I see a potencial reversion very > troublesome > >>>> and time consuming. > >>>> > >>>> The first of the changesets seem to have been edited about a > month ago > >>>> [1]. So around 6 am 21 Oct 2015. > >>>> > >>>> To check what buildings were at the area before deletion, you may > use > >>>> the next overpass query: [2]. As there isn't any Canaan area in > OSM, > >>>> just used the ({{bbox}}) thing. I set the date at 00:00:01 of > that day > >>>> (so 6 hours before the first changeset). > >>>> > >>>> With this other query [3] you can get a file with the building > ways that > >>>> were present at that same date and time, that were deleted, and > also > >>>> those that were modified and new buildings created. The output > file > >>>> don't open in JOSM, but could be use to get statistical info (for > >>>> example) on number of buildings deleted. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> > >>>> Rafael. > >>>> > >>>> [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/34784526 > >>>> [2] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/cQv > >>>> [3] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/cQw > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 20/11/15 19:29, Pierre Béland wrote: > >>>> > Being in Port-au-Prince for a Training session of the Haiti > >>>> > OpenStreetMap community (Espace OSM francophone project), I > >>>> collaborate > >>>> > this week with the Haiti OSM community who have monitored > urbanisation > >>>> > progression in the Canaan sector, providing UAV imagery in > 2013, 2014 > >>>> > and 2015 (60% of the zone covered so far). They have also added > >>>> to osm > >>>> > the building footprints in the area from precise and accurate > >>>> imagery (4 > >>>> > cm precision). > >>>> > > >>>> > We organize a mapathon tomorrow to revise the Canaan zone using > the > >>>> > November 2015 imagery available and monitor the progress of > rapid > >>>> House > >>>> > contruction in this sector. > >>>> > > >>>> > Planning the work, I see today that one contributor did most of > >>>> Tak 1238 > >>>> > for Canaan Haiti and it seems deleted systematically buildings > before > >>>> > redrawing them. In JOSM if I download buildings and search for > newly > >>>> > created buildings (ie version:1), most of the buildings have > >>>> version=1. > >>>> > > >>>> > If this is exact, we should note that this is contrary to the > OSM > >>>> > philosophy. The rule that we generally follow at OSM to respect > >>>> previous > >>>> > contributions and keep history, is to revise geometry and not > delete / > >>>> > retrace. > >>>> > > >>>> > For these two changesets alone, I count 50 and 44 ways deleted. > >>>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35462043 > >>>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35462424 > >>>> > > >>>> > At the same time, many buildings are missing. Since I have no > >>>> comparizon > >>>> > with the situation before this mapping, It is hard to say what > was > >>>> done > >>>> > exactly, if any building were erased and not replaced. > >>>> > > >>>> > Could somebody confirm that buildings were systematically > deleted > >>>> before > >>>> > retracing. What should we do to correct rapidly this situation > >>>> before we > >>>> > start the mapathon tomorrow? > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Pierre > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > HOT mailing list > >>>> > HOT@openstreetmap.org <mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org> > >>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> HOT mailing list > >>>> HOT@openstreetmap.org <mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org> > >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> sent from my mobile device > >>>> > >>>> Dale Kunce > >>>> http://normalhabit.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> HOT mailing list > >>>> HOT@openstreetmap.org > >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> HOT mailing list > >> HOT@openstreetmap.org > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > HOT mailing list > HOT@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >
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