I see that it has stream I/O. What else has it added that isn't VM specific?
And, yes, PIPES would be a welcome addition to TSO. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 ________________________________________ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Lionel B. Dyck [lbd...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 1:06 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Top 8 Reasons for using Python instead of REXX for z/OS If IBM would just upgrade the z/OS REXX to the same level as currently shipped with z/VM it would be an improvement. Then if they were to also include PIPES then REXX would be far superior to any other scripting language (or at least close). Lionel B. Dyck <>< Website: https://secure-web.cisco.com/10TiA8Aj2AzXlEYj1auI_M4x5J-TEW7z2XDny1ffSrzitvQuy7uoHMACQ3bmPa1ohDvMv4rj8x1nSeoQu9jjR0hFWAcJRMHvSHlpvG4YbwlKniJ22zjxBifdZasZoGCquOjH3liEUshGt-7hmlT_zrfZ-tnyjr3fQN-qHHTyqrCDhi2YGfPAizT92lT_pPD8xTRrzIqeiW9lYRHldSVxmmt8GESzEt2nQ-qgSccK9aaCxojPBMD_V_AToHB59KUgOt_rHdjStB2yA_9oaH3-y1MpQU21up2CmSN-NBSI7pMirOazGFvEm-gvBoUwGVikSfFCy0W60T-xMO4M2aPJO_mOi1SoQUS6pYDpLA6_5XPHXvWo6Q8IILAvL4e0tFvd5OX8I1upR-6EGkM4EF4n6z3KnZN1WGeZrQJZxd2v0FtbZet3pJqeGbio_YVg1dLmU/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lbdsoftware.com Github: https://secure-web.cisco.com/1_lmVz0TTcBIcmJjknn0YJrJFCrX9ViKc2u5FfrMY7bln5BInycYp3wxALhEORVKYJd8JWEXC2qd13sBed545B3z7e9lRRibOvXyP_E5M-p7grI3VwGzHZ-gIgbfwMXQoWzWmw403bMOxdY1H0-jxXxQ8XVKo0CKqIc-0Szgv15tHUi_BJuZle6rFn-FkHPWWRExUkFyiO6vE-uOGhmRstQbsPIWI8Jsjzxsw-xmN2fIZPYBuk8HLtnKCVtqlgopxKIAwWt7fgHQvX5xrOCIaD24iGnjEltJ2ACINCyhr1kouhyCEK1XgPPxrCSPdzLWd-J2334Rm4XX9AwXpwnT85biJLpYIRRJxLiENuL7FWtOQYu6da7ijMYxmDIBefmnr7hOW04vurC-XfjNeGCrjNvuaCkrdwIjACXaUrkChEb6hzlqLQi4-ydRI4LouGE4B/https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flbdyck “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you are, reputation merely what others think you are.” - - - John Wooden -----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Matt Hogstrom Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 9:34 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Top 8 Reasons for using Python instead of REXX for z/OS Great response René. To further discussion I think you hit on a few key points that are not related to Python specifically. Notably, sourcing code and installing it (your reference to `sudo apt install`) and the comparison to Rexx versus Clist (a new comer capability versus an incumbent). There are other great points but I’ll choose those two to be brief. I’ll take the second item first. Assessing a new technology requires a cost, risk / benefit analysis. You rightly point out that all shops have a massive investment of intellectual property, tribal knowledge and procedures in Rexx. The same is true for COBOL, JCL and all other z/OS technologies. For instance WebSphere and Java did NOT supplant CICS and IMS becuase, IMHO, the risk to rewriting all the business logic and introducing disruptions inherent in that process did not make business sense. Today, Amazon’s effort to marginalize the mainframe does a poor job of properly considering the costs beyond the “the cloud is better.” So, I agree, Python is not a replacement; it’s merely the challenger to Rexx that Rexx was to CLIST. I believe the overall programming environment, support for REST, current encoding like YAML, JSON, … make it far more suitable than Rexx. Rexx can be upgraded but at least from my vantage point I don’t see a lot of community effort to do that. Time will tell. The largest impediment to Python is that it is not installed on z/OS and is yet another depedency that needs to be sourced, maintained and supported. IBM has not done a good job of putting its money where its mouth is in this regard. I realize there is a business reality there because IBM is investing. Back to the first point I made which is sourcing. I am interested in how people feel about sourcing the code. René mentioned `sudo apt install` which implies an external repository; not something that most business’ are comfortable doing. They would expect the process of `sudo apt install` would come from a repository provided by a vendor and that the vendor would manage security, provenance, … Open source in terms of grabbing content from outside then corporation and using it in apps or system administration seems like a significant hurdle. My 2c Matt Hogstrom PGP key 0F143BC1 Broadcom Distinguished Engineer > On Dec 19, 2021, at 08:41, René Jansen <rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > My impression is that this sudden ‘article’ is linked to this ‘modernise the > mainframe’ effort. It is funny that you mention Yaml because of course that > is one of the fashionable formats that will have their 14 days of fame - > "what should the interface be ? “ GML, HTML, XML, JSON, and now YAML. The > fact that no-one made a Rexx library for that yet, indicates that is not > often used. If you then look at the source in Python, it would be clear that > it was better done in Rexx. > > The argument that more libraries is better should have skyrocketed NetRexx: > you can script in it, and it has all those Java libraries available and for > free. > > The thing people - and the IBM managers guiding this - should realise, is > that attacking Rexx does not help the ‘modernise the mainframe’ effort at > all. Rexx is a language with a loyal following, and you should not offend > those people. On other platforms, there is a plethora of scripting languages > available, and if it is not there, it is one command to the package manager > away - sudo [apt | yum} install regina-rexx - and you are underway. The > mainframe is of course a different animal where the choice is limited. Now > producing propaganda for Python causes friction in companies running z/OS - > there is infrastructure management that decides what is run where, and there > will be a group very unhappy that they cannot run Python yet, and another > group that will be unhappy because they now have to do Python when that > moment has arrived. There is no package repository for people to make their > choices. If you are serious about modernising, I would respectfully suggest > to solve that problem first: maybe more people would like Perl, Ruby, Lua, > Scala, Kotlin. Like there were recent effort by IBM with PHP and Swift that > apparently got nowhere. And maybe to use just the one library you did not > include in this Python distro, whichever that may be. > > But wait: then it would not be the mainframe anymore, that controlled > environment that people trust. In the coming years, you will regret that > choice, when one of the Python libraries sprouts a ‘log4j’. > > The other thing is: when introducing one more scripting language, all the > Rexx execs will not be gone overnight (even if attempted, that would be a > senseless, equity destroying act). When Rexx appeared, on TSO, somewhere in > 1988/1989, there already was a lot of CLIST, and I had to maintain more of > those than I cared for. Some of them became Rexx execs, but most of these > were from IBM or vendor companies. And of course there still is JCL - that > spectre of a proto-scripting language. Interestingly, as a Rexx fan, I tried > people to move from JCL to Rexx (superior control structures, parameters, > etc) for years, but really nobody bought into that. It seems that JCL, with > all its shortcomings, contributes to that safe feeling of stability the > platform offers. > > Introducing one more ‘official’ scripting language would fragment the > landscape even more. Now people new on the platform would have to learn > CLIST, Rexx, JCL *and* Python. It would complicate the situation for new > people on the workforce, who would probably be better off learning COBOL or > Java. I am not a stakeholder in this, and I wish IBM all kinds of luck with > it, but I do object to a ‘blog’ about Rexx filled with falsehoods. People > more respectful to their own traditions and intellectual property would have > updated Rexx to the current ANSI standard, and would have introduced the > object oriented variant decades ago. > > Of course you all are entitled your opinions about your favourite programming > languages, and editors, and platforms. For most of us, those are a large part > of our days. I have to laugh at ‘light years better’ and ‘in a different > league’. In fact, they are more or less the same, and most of those languages > do exist solely because IBM bought into the Open Source thing a little late - > and of course Microsoft sabotaging Rexx where it could, just because it was a > better BASIC. > > Best regards, > > René. > > >> On 19 Dec 2021, at 00:54, David Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I agree with almost everything he says. Python is light years better than >> REXX. Of course, that's subjective but it IMO it's in a different league. >> I've been working with YAML configs recently and Python has a very nice YAML >> library. No such luck with REXX, especially classic REXX on z/OS. >>>> >>>> Just FYI, if anyone doesn't know, the person who wrote this >>>> article is an IBM employee, with almost 37 years with them. He is on >>>> LinkedIn at: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
