Any discussion of editors reminds me of
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant>. It is very difficult
to find a single editor that has all desirable features.
Yes, ISPF and XEDIT are dated, but they do a superb job of handling data by
line, which is a natural way to think about code despite being out of fashion.
I see the ability to write macros in Rexx as a plus, although I could live
with, e.g., Java, Python, Ruby.
AI? It is a blessing and a curse: when it correctly autocompletes, etc., then
it is helpful. if it quietly replaces correct text with incorrect text, then
it is bad and I refer to it as "artificial stupidity". I suspect that everybody
here has encountered word processors that introduced errors with their
auto-defect (stet) features.
There was a little girl
By Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
There was a little girl,
Who had a little curl,
Right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good,
She was very good indeed,
But when she was bad she was horrid.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 12:39 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers
While I understand that it may be an unpopular opinion on this forum, I
personally believe that the ISPF editor is outdated relic. As Peter
mentioned, VS Code is a fantastic alternative. Additionally, Microsoft's
GitHub offers the Copilot plugin, which functions as an AI programming
assistant. In my own experience, using graphical user interface (GUI)
editors over the past two decades has greatly increased my productivity
through features like auto-completion, code navigation, and linting.
Copilot has exceeded my expectations, and I now believe we have entered
a new era of AI-assisted coding, similar to the game-changing
capabilities of ChatGPT.
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.github.com%2Fen%2Fcopilot&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Cb6c86d4fa8df4b7723a808db194e43c3%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638131596160760449%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nmTYUraSUa%2B6HEl%2BNKmzULDnZjcAiSpemCrgKw%2B%2BxIA%3D&reserved=0
On 25/2/23 01:23, Farley, Peter wrote:
> Lionel, respectfully I must disagree. I have been using the IBM Zxplore
> website on my own time for over a year now for enhanced learning of some of
> the "new" technologies available on our mainframe systems, and I have been
> consistently surprised to observe the actual difficulties that genuine
> newcomers to mainframe systems have with many fundamental concepts that we
> take for granted. The "almost tree-like (but not really)" structure of
> mainframe datasets and the use (and mis-use) of JCL seem to be the most
> frequent cause of misunderstanding and errors, along with learning to read
> and understand the messages generated from a batch job or utility execution.
>
> It isn't the client-side tool interface (VSCode vs TSO/ISPF) that gives most
> of the newcomers fits, they seem to pick that up without too many problems.
> It's the fundamental system operational differences that make it harder for
> them to grasp, at least at first.
>
> OTOH, the VSCode/ZOWE interfaces were (for me anyway) easy to learn and
> understand. Sometimes annoying to use but very effective. Especially Zowe
> utilities at a command prompt, the help features are annoyingly verbose
> though very helpful when you first start using them.
>
> But all these open tools are only scratching the surface. The real deal
> costs real money, because a Windows/Linux client cannot do dynamic
> compilation/binding/debugging on the mainframe without paid packages from IBM
> or other vendor add-on products. At this point in time the best you can
> offer with open-source tools is batch job submission to compile and bind and
> execute, and review the batch job output in the VSCode client instead of in
> TSO/ISPF. I'm not sure that is enough of a win to make it into a CIO's TODO
> list, especially when you add the DASD increment to supply all developers
> with large enough z/OS Unix file systems to do their work in the "new way"
> because that's a "real money" addition to the cost of operation.
>
> And forget about CI/CD tool chains. The CI/CD tool vendors seem to all be
> using the "normal" IBM and large ISV pricing schemes (i.e., lots of money)
> for mainframe versions of those tools. Another (big!) minus in the CIO's
> view.
>
> The other issue is CPU usage in today's
> frequently-CPU-constrained-due-to-cost mainframe shops. In solving some of
> the Zxplore "challenges" (exercises to learn a feature or tool), many times
> the challenge solutions prove over and over that the performance of z/OS Unix
> tools lags far behind the "regular" mainframe tools like Rexx in the
> performance area, sometimes by large factors (ZOAU tools in particular are
> real CPU hogs, and the DB2 Command Line Interface tool as well). Python on
> the mainframe is pretty good, but still can't beat out Rexx in performance
> even when the Rex script needs to use BPXWUNIX and friends to access z/OS
> Unix file systems, and both python and Rexx often beat shell-scripted
> solution performance by several multiples. Again not a plus when trying to
> get into a CIO's TODO list.
>
> And that's my USD$0.02 worth.
>
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of
> Lionel B. Dyck
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 9:22 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers
>
> Just my $0.01 (not worth $0.02).
>
> These developers who want/need access to z/OS and don't want to learn how to
> work with z/OS, don't they learn new things all the time - new IDE's,
> different operating systems (windows, macos, flavors of linux, unix, ...)?
> IMHO it is easier to learn the TSO/ISPF interface than some of the
> distributed interfaces (which change in small to large ways with upgrades).
>
> Just my curmudgeonly opinion after struggling with some challenges with using
> VSCode last weekend.
>
> Lionel B. Dyck <><
> Website:
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lbdsoftware.com__%3B!!Ebr-cpPeAnfNniQ8HSAI-g_K5b7VKg!MqpmHq_VRWuj8wK14SatSDQWJGXeGrVWi5_dAm8crRqLAJuu-eLagqlqYnH7U0D524MhnZpyL6Gq6WBEzt4%24&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Cb6c86d4fa8df4b7723a808db194e43c3%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638131596160760449%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=BvoHT5gkP4R5OjmXN3egv7sM2rCA9xXdKjcrxaOuKyk%3D&reserved=0
> Github:
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flbdyck__%3B!!Ebr-cpPeAnfNniQ8HSAI-g_K5b7VKg!MqpmHq_VRWuj8wK14SatSDQWJGXeGrVWi5_dAm8crRqLAJuu-eLagqlqYnH7U0D524MhnZpyL6Gqr7VuHgk%24&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Cb6c86d4fa8df4b7723a808db194e43c3%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638131596160760449%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2MQ6%2FVbl96UxwrT8Ph5%2Byob1dND49eQcOS%2By7MzjxHo%3D&reserved=0
>
> “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you
> are, reputation merely what others think you are.” - - - John Wooden
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of
> Bill Giannelli
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 8:02 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers
>
> So I hope you all dont mind a general question...........
> We have the common struggle of dealing with non-mainframe developers
> accessing z/OS (programs, jobs, DB2) and an attitude that we need to leave
> the mainframe.
> In trying to leverage our z/OS environment, might ZOWE (and the required
> zOSMF) provide a better transition and/or "access" to z/OS "processes"?
> We do not have zOSMF and ZOWE implemented. I was wondering if it may be worth
> while to do so.
> I hope my question makes sense.
> thanks
> Bill
> --
>
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