Re: Last Call: 'The IESG and RFC Editor documents: Procedures' to BCP

John C Klensin Wed, 12 May 2004 01:11:54 -0700

--On Tuesday, May 11, 2004 12:39 PM -0400 Scott Bradner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

in general that seems OK though I'd like to see "including the
possibility of the author pursuing the work within the IETF"
added

Clearly I intended that option to be included. I didn't state it for two reasons. First, I thought it was obvious. Second, it felt like it was looking for trouble to identify one example ("pursue the work within the IETF" while not identifying any others. And, bluntly, the obvious other example is "the IESG beats the author (I hope only intellectually and metaphorically) to a pulp and convinces him that the document is really stupid and will cause him embarrassment for the rest of his life". I don't want to go anywhere near that in this sort of document, but avoiding doing anything that would permit someone to complain that AD administration of a clue-by-four (even aggressively) is inappropriate.

Much more broadly and IMO, if the IETF is going to be worth anything a few years from now, the ADs have to be enabled to educate, and encouraged and expected to do so, even when the subject of such education is unwilling. As long as "education" doesn't shift into "intimidation", if the side effect of such education is withdrawal of a dumb document, then I think it is wonderful. This isn't the critical mainstream for this document, with or without the suggested modifications, but, based on the experience of the last few years, I get really worried about text -- especially new text-- in these procedural documents that enables or encourages potential protocol lawyers... whether they are inside the IESG or outside the core IETF community.

john

--On Tuesday, May 11, 2004 12:39 PM -0400 Scott Bradner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

in general that seems OK though I'd like to see "including the
possibility of the author pursuing the work within the IETF"
added

----

From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue May 11 12:18:30 2004

Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:18:20 -0400
From: John C Klensin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Scott Bradner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED],
        [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Last Call: 'The IESG and RFC Editor documents:
 Procedures' to BCP
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
References:  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Scott, Harald,

It seems to me that this problem/ disagreement could be easily
solved while preserving the (IMO, valid) points both of you
are  making, by including a sentence somewhere to the effect
of...

        Of course, the IESG or individual ADs may have
        discussions with the author during this period about
        other possible ways to handle the document.  Should that
        discussion result in a voluntary action by the author to
        drop the request to the RFC Editor to publist, the
        document moves immediately outside the scope of this
        specification.

Now, that may not be the right phrasing in context, and can
certainly be improved.   But I think it covers the full range
of  from "we really think this should be standardized, why not
let  us process it that way" to "if you insist on publishing
that  thing, I'm going to break both of your legs".   The
question of  whether those actions are appropriate is a
separate issue, but  the IESG has never been able to insist on
either standardization  or withdrawal.  And, as far as I know,
both actions are  identical as far as the RFC Editor is
concerned: the document is  spontaneously withdrawn as an
individual submission.

john


--On Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:57 AM -0400 Scott Bradner
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Anything else should (IMHO) be advice to the RFC Editor and
the author, and  not be part of the formal position-taking
the IESG makes.

we may be debating termonology

your ID says "The IESG may return five different responses"

that seems to eliminate the possibility of communicating any
such advice

Because in the past, we've seriously bogged down independent
publications  because we were debating (with or without the
author) whether or not they  should be IETF work.
And we need to stop doing that.

beware of tossing too much away just to "stop doing that"

I still fail to see why this document cannot say that one of
the outcomes could be that the author could agree with the
IESG to bring the work into the IETF -  it seems a bit
dogmatic to refuse to say that (and counter to the intent of
2026)

Scott

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