This message failed when first sent, so am trying again.
Thanks for the information, though I am also interested in the habitats
thesespecies grow in.
As for Gymnadenia orchidis, this species may well need moister conditions
thanfound in Ladakh or even Lahaul.
Yes, it has been recorded from Pakistan (according to Stewart and the author
ofOrchidaceae for Flora of Pakistan - the latter says "alpine pastures".
Stewart onlylists Hazara, Upper Kishengaga & Kashmir Valley NOT the drier
districts likeBaltistan or Ladakh.
So it seems no surprise to me that it is NOT known from Ladakh.
I remain curious about the habitat and altitudinal range of Dactylorhiza
hatagirea sensu lato(or agg. if one prefers) in Bhutan. IS, I wonder
G.orchidis more commonly collected as'dbang-lag' there rather than D.hatagirea?
As I said, I do not have a copy of Orchidaceae for Bhutan (and Sikkim). IF
you do, could youcheck what this volume has to say about these two species.
Perhaps Professor Rawat has information about these species in Sikkim? Though
this was a separateKingdom (as Bhutan currently remains as) previously and
access may have been difficult then.
I have just seen that you were quoting from Orchids of Bhutan - is this the
same as the Orchidaceae ofBhutan published by Edinburgh Botanics?
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: Pankaj Kumar <sahanipan...@gmail.com>
To: C CHADWELL <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>; Gopal Singh Rawat
<raw...@wii.giv.in>
Cc: J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia
<indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2017, 12:57
Subject: Re: Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in Bhutan and Eastern Himalaya
Dear SirNice pics.You may contact my PhD mentor Prof G.S.Rawat about the
occurrence of these species in the Himalayas as he has conducted extensive
surveys in this area.Here are few details I am quoting from Orchids of Bhutan,
Orchids of Northwest Himalaya and Orchids of Arunachal Pradesh.
Dactylorhiza hatagireaINDIA: Jammu and Kashmir (Kashmir, Kishan Ganga Valley,
Sonmarg, Gulmarg, Gilgit, Poonch, Ladakh), Himachal Pradesh (Shimla, Chamba,
Lahaul, Kullu, Ksokar), Uttarakhand (Garhwal - Mussorie, Tehri, Uttarkashi,
Chamoli; Kumaun - Pithoragarh), Arunachal Pradesh (Kameng, Subhanshri);
PAKISTAN NEPAL & SOUTH WEST TIBET (CHINA).
Gymnadenia orchidisINDIA: Jammu & Kashmir (Liddar Valley), Himachal Pradesh
(Pangi Chamba, Shimla, Dhanchoo, Kinnor), Uttarakhand (Garhwal - Uttarkashi,
Chamoli; Kumaun - Pithoragarh, Nainital), West Bengal (Darjeeling), Sikkim,
Arunachal Pradesh (Kameng, Lohit, Siang); PAKISTAN; NEPAL; BHUTAN.Note: I cant
find a reference saying this from Ladakh area but with such distribution from
Pakistan till Bhutan, I imagine WHY NOT?
Hope this helps.Pankaj
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 7:47 AM, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell...@btinternet.com>
wrote:
I am in agreement that conditions in the NW Himalaya (which I consider to be
Kashmir & H.P. but not Uttarakhand)are different to Uttarakhand. The State of
Uttarakhand represents the north-westerly limit of the range of quitea number
of Himalayan species belonging to many genera.
I consider dividing the main Himalaya into just "Western" and "Eastern" is too
simplistic. Perfect divisions seldomexist but better to have "North-West" (see
above), "Central" (covering Uttarakhand plus West & Central Nepal), then
"Eastern"(covering East Nepal, Sikkim & Bhutan). I am not familiar enough
with the vegetation/floristics of A.P. to comment as to whetherit fits into
'East' Himalaya well or has greater affinities with the flora of the mountains
of SW China (which I do not countas part of the Himalaya proper - just as the
Karakoram and Hindu Kush are not part of the Himalaya proper).
I remain interested in the identify (according to Western Science) of plants
collected under 'Tibetan Names'especially the CORRECT geographic range,
altitudinal range and habitats for Dactylorhiza hatagirea(sensu lato) and
Gymnadenia orchidis.
As you know, orchids are few and far between in the Indian Trans-Himalaya.
Dickore & Klimes (2005) list the followingspecies from Ladakh:
Dactylorhiza hatagireaD.kafirianaEpipactis helleborineEpipactis
persicaHerminium monorchis
I have not come across any Epipactis in Ladakh myself (though have seen
E.helleborine in Kashmir).
The typical habitat for the Dactylorhizas and Herminium in Ladakh (and Lahoul)
is in 'marshy' conditions around theirrigation channels of fields. See
attached images taken from some 800m above the Matayan in Ladakh (the first
settlementafter one crosses the Zoji La from Kashmir).
Gymnadenia orchidis is NOT known from Ladakh. I am curious as to the CORRECT
ranges and conditions under which thisand Dactylorhiza hatagirea grow in Nepal,
Sikkim & Bhutan. Does any member have a copy of Orchidaceae of Bhutan, so
cancheck the details?
The Gymnadenia is not recorded in 'Flora of Lahaul-Spiti' which IF correct,
suggests it is NOT a Trans-Himalayan species and sowould not be expected in
Nepalese, Sikkimese or Bhutanese territory bordering Tibet, yet the
Dactylorhiza would be.
In addition to records from Kashmir territory, Stewart recoded the Gymnadenia
from Hazara.
The original MEDIEVAL texts which Tibetan Medicine is based upon, mostly
describes species from close to Lhasa/SE Tibet and Bhutan (which was known as
'Southern Valley of Medicinal Herbs'). Doctors of traditional medicine
operating in Ladakhwould located the NEAREST equivalent plant, which in some
cases is NOT the same 'species' according to Western Science.
4 images attached (photographed as slides in mind-1980s) then scanned in:
All show the settlement of Matayan, Ladakh at some 3000m with irrigated fields
of barley (probably also peas and some fodder crops) photographed in September
after harvest. The irrigation channels are home to Dactylorhiza hatagirea and
sometimes Herminium monorchis.
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com>
To: Dr. Pankaj Kumar <sahanipan...@gmail.com>
Cc: chrischadwell261@btinternet. com; efloraofindia
<indiantreepix@googlegroups. com>
Sent: Tuesday, 17 January 2017, 0:40
Subject: Re: Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in Bhutan and Eastern Himalaya
Thanks a lot, Pankaj ji
On 16 Jan 2017 6:48 p.m., "Pankaj Kumar" <sahanipan...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dactylorhiza hatagirea and Gymnadenia orchidis are very widespread above a
particular elevation. I am sure it should be there in Pakistan if it is there
in Indian Kashmir. BUt please remember the aspect of Himalaya changes if you go
westwards from uttarakhand. So uttarakhand has rich diversity and then species
number goes down westwards till the end of Himalayas around Afghanistan.You
cant treat a species based on their traditional name. As I said Dactylorhiza
hatagirea is widespread and some variations are normal. Infact at one point I
think Dactylorhiza umbrosa should be merged under hatagirea.Gymnadenia is very
different for sure but without flower just on the basis of leaves you cant
differentiate, infact there are many Habenaria found in same habitat which cant
be differentiated either. NOT A BIG DEAL.In China all Dendrobiums are used in
chinese medicine as Shih Hu. But there are many species of Dendrobiums in
China. They are very distinct from each other.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 12:33 PM, J.M. Garg <jmga...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji. ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "C CHADWELL" <chrischadwell261@btinternet.c om>
Date: 16 Jan 2017 7:20 a.m.
Subject: Dactylorhiza hatagirea sensu lato in Bhutan and Eastern Himalaya
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmga...@gmail.com>
Cc:
My first visit further East along the Himalaya came in 1990 when I went to
Nepal for the first time.I do not remember seeing any terrestrial orchids but
did notice a number of epiphytic ones at lowerelevation. The first epiphytic
orchids I had seen were when I travelled from Srinagar, Kashmir toJammu then
took the train to Pathankot and noticed some in trees in Kangra district en
route to Manali.
No Dactylorhiza nor Gymnadenia are mentioned in 'Flora of Mustang' but I do not
consider this to be completeby any means as I personally know quite a number of
species omitted.
Enumeration of the Flowering plants of Nepal gives:
D.hatagirea a distribution of Pakistan to Bhutan & SE Tibet @ 2800-3960m
G.orchidis a distribution of Kashmir to Bhutan & SE Tibet @ 3000-4700m.
Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of Orchidaceae for Flora of Bhutan (which
also covers Sikkim).
In the mid-1990s I was a consultant to 'The Royal Government of Bhutan' on 'The
Cultivation of MedicinalPlants for Traditional Medicine Project'.
Prior to my first visit to Bhutan I was sent a partial list of Himalayan
species utilised in Bhutanese Medicine withtheir equivalent Tibetan name. I
immediately noticed some errors within the Latin names, as several of the
specieson the list were restricted to the 'Western' Himalaya and not known in
Bhutan.
As I regularly comment, the geographic distribution of species is seldom
checked. I must ENCOURAGE all thoseattempting to identify plants in the
Himalaya to check along with checking if the elevation where a specimen hasbeen
recorded TALLIES with its known altitudinal range. IF it is at a significantly
higher or lower elevation, then openmust investigate further.
In the list, as expected, there was an entry for 'dbang-lag' which had been
named as Dactylorhiza hatagirea, however, I wonderedif other orchids were
collected as well - indeed there was evidence to suggest D.hatagirea was not
found much in Bhutan.
In another list the 'botanical name' for dbang-lag was given as Gymnadenia
crassinervis. This species is, as far as I know, restricted toChina (Yunnan &
Sichuan), so is likely to be a misidentification. The most likely explanation
is that someone looked up the Latin name fordbang-lag in a Chinese reference
book.
Assuming ALL Dactylorhiza and Gymnadenia have hand-shaped roots then it is
likely that ANY from these two genera are collected bydoctors of Tibetan
Medicine. The actual species will vary from region to region.
Gymnadenia orchidis is recorded for Nepal and Bhutan.
I see that the group's orchid specialist expresses uncertainty in
distinguishing between D.hatagirea and G.orchidis, when specimens are not in
flower. If someone with specialist knowledge struggles, it means other
botanists will have done so in the past. Thus either species may have
previously been over or under-recorded.
There is also the issue of whether Dactylorhiza hatagirea is a variable complex
or a number of taxa can be separated, as Soo suggested in the past.
Has any member got a copy of Orchidaceae for Bhutan (or can check a copy in a
major botanical library) and see what was said aboutthese two 'species' and
closely-related ones?
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
--
****************************** ******************************
****************************** ****************************
Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D.
IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia
Office:
Conservation Officer
Orchid Conservation Section
Flora Conservation Department
Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.
Residence:
House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo TsuenLam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong
Kong.
email: pku...@kfbg.org; sahanipan...@gmail.com
Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile);
Fax: +852 2483 7194
--
**********************************************************************************************************************
Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D.
IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia
Office:
Conservation Officer
Orchid Conservation Section
Flora Conservation Department
Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong.
Residence:
House no. 39, 2nd Floor, Shui Wo TsuenLam Tsuen, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong
Kong.
email: pku...@kfbg.org; sahanipan...@gmail.com
Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile);
Fax: +852 2483 7194
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