So... Giby... Finalyy you listened to this old lady... good for you... may be you can collate the data... pictures etc... and may be this can be your research project at ASHOKA .... if successful.. who knows... good things may yewt come your way... lets do it... Usha di
===== PS GIBY: I HAVE STARTED A NEW THREAD WITH MY IDEA ... you may want to copy paste what you wrote here in that thread so that that thread becomes your data collecting place... and stays positive... ========= On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 6:01 PM, Giby Kuriakose <[email protected]>wrote: > I request all members to please come up with the pictures of both the > plants (*M. exotica* and *M. paniculata*) depicting the characters. We > will decide it later at the end of the discussion whether to call them same > or different species. If you don't get both, please get whatever is there in > your area and we shall differentiate which is which. > I would appreciate if you can take some effort to get some clear close up > pictures of leaves (to see the shape and preferably with a scale) flowers > (both front and side view) and fruits (if available). Please dont forget to > collect notes for valid discussion. > Let us see what happens. I am not accessible to any of these plants at > present and when ever I get I will put my share in to it. > I request Gurcharan sir to kindly lead the discussion based on the > pictures. > We will clear the doubt with evidences. Further we can submit a report to > the plant list or GRIN and why not we can go for a publication on behalf of > "efloraofindia" > > At the same time, if someone can catch hold of the picture/scan copies of > type specimens it would be better. > > It is not good to stop a discussion without result. > > > Regards, > Giby > > > > > > > On 18 October 2011 17:44, ushadi Micromini <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Giby: yes... >> but there does not seem to be even any papers just describiing the >> differences... >> or even we do not have several submissions... of the variants... so how >> would any one of us or Dr. Gurcharanji...make a case for revision... when >> INDIAN scientists themselves do not have data...or pictures etc... >> >> >> I am not talking of just talking... >> I am talking of action.. >> thats what was done in the 40s and 50s in USA to classify the cancers >> finally in the modern format we know... and classification goes on even >> now... it never stops.. >> but >> to clear up the ambiguities one has to start with one plant.... >> someplace... >> and we have 1900 members, thats a small army of well intentioned botany >> minded folks.... >> >> even if 1/3rd of them go out and keep an eye on their favorite Murraya for >> a year... imagine the data we will have? >> >> thinking is very imp... here... >> >> ushadi >> ------------ >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Giby Kuriakose <[email protected] >> > wrote: >> >>> Dear Ushadi ji, >>> >>> This is not just studying this plant alone but there are several such >>> ambiguities in the classification (especially plant classification) that had >>> happened because of several reasons. It is time to rectify such ambiguities. >>> >>> I do think that we need lots of discussions like this especially when >>> people are of different opinion. Because opinions of taxonomists who work in >>> different arena has their own share to it. >>> I am pretty sure that people who work on revision of plants such as "the >>> plant list" and GRIN will go for several discussions to get it concluded. >>> Single person may not be able do this kind of work. Whenever there are more >>> people working on the same aspect, there would be different opinions. We >>> would be conclude the same only with help of fruitful discussions and >>> debates . >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Giby >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 18 October 2011 16:15, Ushadi micromini <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Gurcharanji: >>>> >>>> You wrote: I quote: >>>> >>>> "Perhaps no one has been as busy as me in sending them the >>>> possible errors in their list, I send them at least one mail in one >>>> week to >>>> highlight ambiguities"... end quote... >>>> >>>> I commend you and laud you for doing this... >>>> >>>> It may help us young hotshots to know that... perhaps we have not >>>> recognized... or even know your contribution in this aspect towards >>>> the cause of Indian flora... we know you as a great teacher for us in >>>> efloaindia/indiatreepix... but may not be aware of your international >>>> inputs... >>>> >>>> MY HUMBLE suggestion... >>>> >>>> could you also forward a copy to eflora... as a new thread ... >>>> whenever you write to these authorites ..pointing out their errata... >>>> just cut and paste what you wrote/sent... >>>> so that we may all know several thins: >>>> 1) the efforts you put in...energy, botanical knowledge, your >>>> reputation and other things in line... >>>> >>>> 2) if need be we can study up the matter and somehow help support your >>>> argument... >>>> and we will have a list of erratum right here... so that instead of >>>> rejecting some of these authorities outright we the young ones will >>>> know...and instead of fighting, something constructive will be done... >>>> >>>> 3) its very reassuring and comforting to know that an expert like you >>>> who is also very helpful is always present at indiatreepix to help out >>>> with proper id , be it for scientific minded extensive photo-report or >>>> just a small point and shoot quick nonetoo clear picture of just the >>>> flower... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> SECONDLY : I am sorry to say to a guru ... but Guruji, its not >>>> always evident in this forum when these arguments heat up that you >>>> keep an open mind... as you say I quote from your write up .... " >>>> and keep my opinions open" end quote...may be its just a question of >>>> style but .... we all are guilty of talking in shorthand , not just >>>> yourself... and may not be very clear that we were keeping an open >>>> mind... >>>> >>>> >>>> SO WE STILL HAVE THIS QUESTION OPEN>>> SHOULD WE STUDY this >>>> plant????... >>>> >>>> Usha di >>>> ====== >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 18, 12:59 pm, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > Yes Giby ji >>>> > The discussion is getting interesting. For decades we had been >>>> following >>>> > original Index Kewensis. This time Kew has come into collaboration >>>> with >>>> > Missouri Botanical Garden making use of huge databases like Tropicos, >>>> IPNI >>>> > and hundreds of other collaborators, and they are trying to build a >>>> list of >>>> > accepted names and synonyms. Agreed there are several mistakes, >>>> several >>>> > unresolved names but these would be resolved over next few years. We >>>> have to >>>> > point out these mistakes where they exist, but simply rejecting these >>>> would >>>> > only harm us not the Plant List, which surely going to be the >>>> undisputed >>>> > reference source. Perhaps no one has been as busy as me in sending >>>> them the >>>> > possible errors in their list, I send them at least one mail in one >>>> week to >>>> > highlight ambiguities. But finally once established the List would be >>>> > followed by almost the whole World. I always base my decisions on >>>> recent >>>> > evidence, and keep my opinions open. That is the right scientific >>>> approach. >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>> > Retired Associate Professor >>>> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>> >>>> > >>>> > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Giby Kuriakose >>>> > <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > Thank you sir ji the link provided by you is very informative. This >>>> > > discussion turn to be interesting as the naming and treatment of the >>>> plants >>>> > > are so complicated. >>>> > > Earlier people working from different parts of the world were not >>>> well >>>> > > connected by any means as that of today. >>>> > > Further, most of the publications were made regionally that was not >>>> > > reaching to the people in the other parts of the world. These >>>> publications >>>> > > has started reaching people now with the advancement of >>>> communication >>>> > > and digitization. >>>> > > The communication gap would be the reason why there are so many >>>> synonyms >>>> > > for several species. >>>> > > Now we have a good platform to discuss and dig out the right thing. >>>> But we >>>> > > need to understand the characters of a plant/animal that >>>> > > discriminate taxonomically with due respect to the concept of >>>> species. >>>> > >>>> > > Regards, >>>> > > Giby >>>> > >>>> > > On 18 October 2011 12:33, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >> Yes Giby ji The Plant List and GRIN did differ, but please read >>>> note under >>>> > >> M. exotica updated in September 2011 >>>> > >>>> > >> " perhaps best treated as *M. paniculata* ‘Exotica’" >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?24702 >>>> > >>>> > >> Besides Wikipedia, please also see the following link >>>> > >>>> > >>http://www.hear.org/pier/species/murraya_paniculata.htm >>>> > >>>> > >> I would be interested to know any recent treatment which considers >>>> them >>>> > >> separate. >>>> > >>>> > >> -- >>>> > >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>> > >> Retired Associate Professor >>>> > >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>> > >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>> > >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>> > >>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>> > >>>> > >> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Ushadi micromini < >>>> > >> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>> Dear all: >>>> > >>>> > >>> one thing I learned from studying cancer .... which is also a >>>> study of >>>> > >>> structure, biology behaviour... >>>> > >>>> > >>> one thing I learned: is that we should try to keep an open mind... >>>> > >>>> > >>> things may turn out to be quite different and may surprise the >>>> heck >>>> > >>> out of the learned minds, sometimes... >>>> > >>>> > >>> nothing is written in stone... >>>> > >>> none of these floras.. or hortuses or whoever... went on the >>>> mountain >>>> > >>> and returned with a burning bush... >>>> > >>> these are not commandments from god... merely guidelines made by >>>> > >>> experts from some local university groups or botanical gardens, >>>> they >>>> > >>> study hard and make deductions >>>> > >>> BUT what they say should sometimes be taken as a guideline and >>>> not >>>> > >>> a commandment... >>>> > >>> I am sure they never came to India and saw these murraya plants in >>>> > >>> action... >>>> > >>>> > >>> may be it behooves someone/ one two a few ... from our group to do >>>> > >>> that... >>>> > >>>> > >>> somewhere in this thread I had even agreed to collect specimen and >>>> > >>> preserve and send for genetic analysis if someone was >>>> interested... or >>>> > >>> had the grant monies and lab equipment and grad students to do the >>>> > >>> research.... >>>> > >>>> > >>> so lets not fight ... but do something constructive... >>>> > >>>> > >>> may be we should have a Murraya panniculata week.... once every 3 >>>> > >>> months, that will cover the entire year's worth of the plants >>>> > >>> behaviour... leaf only, leaf and flowering stage, fruiting stage >>>> and >>>> > >>> dormancy in deep winter... >>>> > >>> which would perhaps be different in different parts of India... >>>> > >>> where people will take pictures in Prescribed format, with >>>> > >>> rulers /// and collect twigs, plant material fruits... etc... >>>> > >>> and press herbarium specimen... from all states of India.... >>>> > >>>> > >>> and may be ceylon ... kamini grows there too... >>>> > >>>> > >>> LETS THINK ABOUT THIS.... >>>> > >>>> > >>> USHA di >>>> > >>> =============== >>>> > >>>> > >>> On Oct 18, 11:06 am, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > >>> > I don't know, how many of us have seen these two plants, but i >>>> am sure >>>> > >>> who >>>> > >>> > ever have seen these two proper specimen will never treat it as >>>> one.. >>>> > >>>> > >>> > before i had said and again i am saying there are number of gaps >>>> in The >>>> > >>> > Plant List on Indian plants,,, those who want to follow it, no >>>> one can >>>> > >>> stop >>>> > >>> > them.. >>>> > >>>> > >>> > regards, >>>> > >>>> > >>> > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>> [email protected]> >>>> > >>> wrote: >>>> > >>> > > Dear Vijaysankar ji >>>> > >>> > > I am very much aware of eFlora of China and treatment in It, >>>> but let >>>> > >>> us >>>> > >>> > > appreciate the fact that Flora of China is 1997 publication. I >>>> have >>>> > >>> > > following to support my conclusion: >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > The Plant >>>> list...............................................2010 >>>> > >>>> > >>> >>>> Wikipedia....................................................September, >>>> > >>> > > 2011 >>>> > >>> > > >>>> GRIN............................................................note >>>> > >>> on >>>> > >>> > > Sept, 2011 based on *Beattie, A.* 2011. pers. comm. via E–mail >>>> to L. >>>> > >>> > > Fowler on 15 Sept 2011. [re. *M. exotica* vs. *M. >>>> paniculata*]. >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > Perhaps many more will follow. In my opinion two plants >>>> looking >>>> > >>> differently >>>> > >>> > > does not make much difference. What is important are >>>> differences are >>>> > >>> > > sufficient enough to merit distinction or merger. I believe in >>>> what >>>> > >>> > > taxonomic World thinks currently. >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > -- >>>> > >>> > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>> > >>> > > Retired Associate Professor >>>> > >>> > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>> > >>> > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>> > >>> > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>> > >>> > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Vijayasankar < >>>> > >>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> No HS ji, I am sure He won't neglect FoC's treatment. The >>>> editors of >>>> > >>> FoC >>>> > >>> > >> also had the same opinion like ours, in both the cases >>>> Murraya and >>>> > >>> > >> Flacourtia. We know that they are (the spp.) different. >>>> That's why >>>> > >>> when >>>> > >>> > >> several Indian Floras treated them as synonyms, we could not >>>> agree. >>>> > >>> But >>>> > >>> > >> someone does come with solutions, and now we are comfortable. >>>> Its >>>> > >>> matter of >>>> > >>> > >> time. Thanks to the dynamic nature of plant systematics. >>>> Nothing is >>>> > >>> final! >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> Regards >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> Vijayasankar Raman >>>> > >>> > >> National Center for Natural Products Research >>>> > >>> > >> University of Mississippi >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:53 AM, H S <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> Thanks Vijay ji for sharing this,, >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> but even i know that Sirji will not agree with this.. >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> thanks, >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Vijayasankar < >>>> > >>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Dear all, >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> We all know that Flora of China (FoC) is one of the most >>>> trusted >>>> > >>> > >>>> efloras, and most of the time a ready reference for >>>> identifying >>>> > >>> our Indian >>>> > >>> > >>>> plants, too. >>>> > >>> > >>>> It treats *Murraya paniculata* and *M. exotica* as >>>> different >>>> > >>> species. >>>> > >>> > >>>> We knew this based on our field experience. >>>> > >>> > >>>> The differences, as per FoC are: [ >>>> > >>> > >>>> >>>> http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=121339] >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Leaflet blades mostly suborbicular to ovate to elliptic, >>>> 1.5-6 cm >>>> > >>> wide* >>>> > >>> > >>>> M. paniculata* >>>> > >>> > >>>> Leaflet blades elliptic-obovate or obovate, 0.5-3 cm >>>> > >>> > >>>> wide *M. exotica* >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> These may appear to be variable characters if we refer only >>>> > >>> herbarium >>>> > >>> > >>>> specimens. >>>> > >>> > >>>> Some taxa for e.g. Flacourtia indica & F. romantchii, we >>>> know they >>>> > >>> are >>>> > >>> > >>>> different based on their differences in habit, ecology >>>> etc., but >>>> > >>> its hard to >>>> > >>> > >>>> find strong characters to distinguish them convincingly. >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Regards >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Vijayasankar Raman >>>> > >>> > >>>> National Center for Natural Products Research >>>> > >>> > >>>> University of Mississippi >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Gurcharan Singh < >>>> > >>> [email protected]>wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>> Nothing can help one who does not want to see reason. Who >>>> can >>>> > >>> stop me >>>> > >>> > >>>>> if I insist on believing that whole taxonomic World is >>>> wrong. Let >>>> > >>> those who >>>> > >>> > >>>>> want to live in their World be so. >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>> -- >>>> > >>> > >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>>> > >>> > >>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>>> > >>> > >>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>>> > >>> > >>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>>> > >>> > >>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>>> > >>> > >>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 7:06 PM, H S <[email protected] >>>> > >>>> > >>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>> Dear all, >>>> > >>> > >>>>>> If plant is different surely they will have some >>>> differences i >>>> > >>> > >>>>>> guess... >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>> I think every one will agree that M. paniculata present >>>> > >>>> > ... >>>> > >>>> > read more » >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> GIBY KURIAKOSE PhD >>> Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE), >>> Royal Enclave, >>> Jakkur Post, Srirampura >>> Bangalore- 560064 >>> India >>> Phone - +91 9448714856 (Mobile) >>> visit my pictures @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/giby >>> >> >> > > > -- > GIBY KURIAKOSE PhD > Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE), > Royal Enclave, > Jakkur Post, Srirampura > Bangalore- 560064 > India > Phone - +91 9448714856 (Mobile) > visit my pictures @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/giby >
