Thank you sir ji the link provided by you is very informative. This discussion turn to be interesting as the naming and treatment of the plants are so complicated. Earlier people working from different parts of the world were not well connected by any means as that of today. Further, most of the publications were made regionally that was not reaching to the people in the other parts of the world. These publications has started reaching people now with the advancement of communication and digitization. The communication gap would be the reason why there are so many synonyms for several species. Now we have a good platform to discuss and dig out the right thing. But we need to understand the characters of a plant/animal that discriminate taxonomically with due respect to the concept of species.
Regards, Giby On 18 October 2011 12:33, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes Giby ji The Plant List and GRIN did differ, but please read note under > M. exotica updated in September 2011 > > " perhaps best treated as *M. paniculata* ‘Exotica’" > > http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?24702 > > Besides Wikipedia, please also see the following link > > http://www.hear.org/pier/species/murraya_paniculata.htm > > I would be interested to know any recent treatment which considers them > separate. > > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Ushadi micromini < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear all: >> >> one thing I learned from studying cancer .... which is also a study of >> structure, biology behaviour... >> >> one thing I learned: is that we should try to keep an open mind... >> >> things may turn out to be quite different and may surprise the heck >> out of the learned minds, sometimes... >> >> >> nothing is written in stone... >> none of these floras.. or hortuses or whoever... went on the mountain >> and returned with a burning bush... >> these are not commandments from god... merely guidelines made by >> experts from some local university groups or botanical gardens, they >> study hard and make deductions >> BUT what they say should sometimes be taken as a guideline and not >> a commandment... >> I am sure they never came to India and saw these murraya plants in >> action... >> >> may be it behooves someone/ one two a few ... from our group to do >> that... >> >> somewhere in this thread I had even agreed to collect specimen and >> preserve and send for genetic analysis if someone was interested... or >> had the grant monies and lab equipment and grad students to do the >> research.... >> >> so lets not fight ... but do something constructive... >> >> may be we should have a Murraya panniculata week.... once every 3 >> months, that will cover the entire year's worth of the plants >> behaviour... leaf only, leaf and flowering stage, fruiting stage and >> dormancy in deep winter... >> which would perhaps be different in different parts of India... >> where people will take pictures in Prescribed format, with >> rulers /// and collect twigs, plant material fruits... etc... >> and press herbarium specimen... from all states of India.... >> >> and may be ceylon ... kamini grows there too... >> >> LETS THINK ABOUT THIS.... >> >> >> USHA di >> =============== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 18, 11:06 am, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >> > I don't know, how many of us have seen these two plants, but i am sure >> who >> > ever have seen these two proper specimen will never treat it as one.. >> > >> > before i had said and again i am saying there are number of gaps in The >> > Plant List on Indian plants,,, those who want to follow it, no one can >> stop >> > them.. >> > >> > regards, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > Dear Vijaysankar ji >> > > I am very much aware of eFlora of China and treatment in It, but let >> us >> > > appreciate the fact that Flora of China is 1997 publication. I have >> > > following to support my conclusion: >> > >> > > The Plant list...............................................2010 >> > > >> Wikipedia....................................................September, >> > > 2011 >> > > GRIN............................................................note >> on >> > > Sept, 2011 based on *Beattie, A.* 2011. pers. comm. via E–mail to L. >> > > Fowler on 15 Sept 2011. [re. *M. exotica* vs. *M. paniculata*]. >> > >> > > Perhaps many more will follow. In my opinion two plants looking >> differently >> > > does not make much difference. What is important are differences are >> > > sufficient enough to merit distinction or merger. I believe in what >> > > taxonomic World thinks currently. >> > >> > > -- >> > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > > Retired Associate Professor >> > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Vijayasankar < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >> No HS ji, I am sure He won't neglect FoC's treatment. The editors of >> FoC >> > >> also had the same opinion like ours, in both the cases Murraya and >> > >> Flacourtia. We know that they are (the spp.) different. That's why >> when >> > >> several Indian Floras treated them as synonyms, we could not agree. >> But >> > >> someone does come with solutions, and now we are comfortable. Its >> matter of >> > >> time. Thanks to the dynamic nature of plant systematics. Nothing is >> final! >> > >> > >> Regards >> > >> > >> Vijayasankar Raman >> > >> National Center for Natural Products Research >> > >> University of Mississippi >> > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:53 AM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >>> Thanks Vijay ji for sharing this,, >> > >> > >>> but even i know that Sirji will not agree with this.. >> > >> > >>> thanks, >> > >> > >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Vijayasankar < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >>>> Dear all, >> > >> > >>>> We all know that Flora of China (FoC) is one of the most trusted >> > >>>> efloras, and most of the time a ready reference for identifying our >> Indian >> > >>>> plants, too. >> > >>>> It treats *Murraya paniculata* and *M. exotica* as different >> species. >> > >>>> We knew this based on our field experience. >> > >>>> The differences, as per FoC are: [ >> > >>>>http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=121339] >> > >> > >>>> Leaflet blades mostly suborbicular to ovate to elliptic, 1.5-6 cm >> wide* >> > >>>> M. paniculata* >> > >>>> Leaflet blades elliptic-obovate or obovate, 0.5-3 cm >> > >>>> wide *M. exotica* >> > >> > >>>> These may appear to be variable characters if we refer only >> herbarium >> > >>>> specimens. >> > >>>> Some taxa for e.g. Flacourtia indica & F. romantchii, we know they >> are >> > >>>> different based on their differences in habit, ecology etc., but >> its hard to >> > >>>> find strong characters to distinguish them convincingly. >> > >> > >>>> Regards >> > >> > >>>> Vijayasankar Raman >> > >>>> National Center for Natural Products Research >> > >>>> University of Mississippi >> > >> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Gurcharan Singh < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >>>>> Nothing can help one who does not want to see reason. Who can stop >> me >> > >>>>> if I insist on believing that whole taxonomic World is wrong. Let >> those who >> > >>>>> want to live in their World be so. >> > >> > >>>>> -- >> > >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > >>>>> Retired Associate Professor >> > >>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > >>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > >>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > >>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > >>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 7:06 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >>>>>> Dear all, >> > >>>>>> If plant is different surely they will have some differences i >> > >>>>>> guess... >> > >> > >>>>>> I think every one will agree that M. paniculata present in the >> wild as >> > >>>>>> well as in cultivation whereas M. exotica or M. paniculata var. >> exotica or >> > >>>>>> cv of M. paniculata whatever we say its commonly cultivated in >> the garden >> > >>>>>> for the glossy laeves and beautiful flowers.. if its cv than who >> had made >> > >>>>>> it???? no doubt they are different and in Maharashtra both can >> seen very >> > >>>>>> commonly,, those who eager to see the species can visit Amboli, >> > >>>>>> Mahabaleshwar, Mathera, Pune, Bhimashankar etc places to see M. >> paniculata >> > >>>>>> and M. exotica in Nashik garden, Mumbai (Rani baug, Bombay trust >> garden, >> > >>>>>> Gorai, Sanjay Gandhi National Park in Plantation near pond,, etc >> etc..), >> > >>>>>> Kolhapur, Pune garden.. etc etc. >> > >> > >>>>>> regards, >> > >> > >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >>>>>>> Mahadeswara ji >> > >>>>>>> For that that matter all species which have been described on >> the >> > >>>>>>> basis of different holotypes would be different species, because >> they will >> > >>>>>>> have some differences. If we have that concept there would be no >> heterotypic >> > >>>>>>> synonyms and we will have more than 5 lac species of angiosperms >> on this >> > >>>>>>> Earth, whereas most authors agree on this number being below 3 >> lacs. As I >> > >>>>>>> have written earlier also Hortus Third (considered Bible for >> cultivated >> > >>>>>>> plants), The Plant List, now even GRIN, and numerous other >> publications >> > >>>>>>> treat them as synonyms, and we would be doing little service to >> ignore them. >> > >> > >>>>>>> -- >> > >>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > >>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >> > >>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > >>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > >>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > >>>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Mahadeswara < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >>>>>>>> I agree with Vijayasankar ji and H.S.ji. Both are different >> > >>>>>>>> species. Both these species are available in IIT Madras >> Campus >> > >>>>>>>> and >> > >>>>>>>> C L R I Campus, Adyar Chennai. While the M. paniculata is >> wild, >> > >>>>>>>> M.exotica is cultivated. In photograph both the plants look >> like. >> > >>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I am not in Chennai now. I had the photographs >> of >> > >>>>>>>> both. I will try to dig out from the archives in due course >> and >> > >>>>>>>> post >> > >>>>>>>> it to the group (depends on getting the photographs) >> > >> > >>>>>>>> On Jul 26, 6:40 am, Balkar Arya <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >>>>>>>> > Dear All >> > >>>>>>>> > *Murraya paniculata* >> > >>>>>>>> > *Family Rutaceae >> > >>>>>>>> > * >> > >>>>>>>> > *From Garden of PIET Campus Samalkha Panipat >> > >>>>>>>> > *-- >> > >>>>>>>> > Regards >> > >> > >>>>>>>> > Dr Balkar Singh >> > >>>>>>>> > Head, Deptt. of Botany and Biotechnology >> > >>>>>>>> > Arya P G College, Panipat >> > >>>>>>>> > Haryana-132103 >> > >>>>>>>> > 09416262964 >> > >> > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (1).JPG >> > >>>>>>>> > 175KViewDownload >> > >> > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (2).JPG >> > >>>>>>>> > 258KViewDownload >> > >> > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (3).JPG >> > >>>>>>>> > 240KViewDownload >> > >> > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (4).JPG >> > >>>>>>>> > 180KViewDownload >> > >> > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (5).JPG >> > >>>>>>>> > 214KViewDownload >> > >> > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (6).JPG >> > >>>>>>>> > 186KViewDownload >> > >> > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (7).JPG >> > >>>>>>>> > 201KViewDownload >> > >> > >>>>>> -- >> > >>>>>> - H.S. >> > >> > >>>>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere >> > >>>>>> heart of stone >> > >> > >>> -- >> > >>> - H.S. >> > >> > >>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere >> heart >> > >>> of stone >> > >> > -- >> > - H.S. >> > >> > A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart >> of >> > stone >> > > > > > -- GIBY KURIAKOSE PhD Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE), Royal Enclave, Jakkur Post, Srirampura Bangalore- 560064 India Phone - +91 9448714856 (Mobile) visit my pictures @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/giby
