read, of course, AA 4.3.110 pārāśarya-śilālibhyāṁ bhikṣu-naṭa-sūtrayoḥ
On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 15:35, Jan E.M. Houben <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Professor Schlingloff, > Thanks for reminding us of this important textual research, which has > significant implications for our lexical understanding of the term sutta. > Your conclusion would be in harmony with the indications found in Pāṇini’s > Aṣṭādhyāyī, > AA 4.3.110 pārāśarya-śilālibhyāṁ bhikṣusūtrayoḥ and 110 karmanda-krśāśvād > iniḥ > according to which two groups of ascetics (mendicants) receive a name > according to the Brahminical ascetic school to which they belong. > In the Sanskritic-Prakritic, widely understandable diglossic vocabulary of > the time, still preceding the origination of classical Sanskrit with > several centuries, > the term sūtra/sutta was apparently used with regard to (sometimes > currently lost) texts for teaching, which were within their school a > Leitfaden, thread or guide > in relation to some larger body of discussions or texts, such as, also, > the Brāhmaṇas and Āraṇyakas in case of the Śrautasūtras. > This can never exclude (the development of) other contemporaneous > interpretations and understandings of the term sutta : yogād rūḍhir > balīyasī... > With best regards, > Jan Houben > > On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 10:53, Dieter Schlingloff <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> in an article in ZDMG 113, 1964, *Zur Interpretation des Pratimoksasutra*, >> p.536-51 , I have given proofs for the thesis, that the Buddhist Pratimoksa >> *sutra* (in its oldest form) is the earliest Buddhist text at all. This >> text is a real *thread*, a guide to korrekt behaviour for Buddhist >> monks. From this guide book, the term was taken over to the following texts >> concerned with teaching, the Buddhist suttas. >> Best greetings, Dieter Schlingloff. >> Am 12.05.2021 um 14:36 schrieb Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I am reminded by Professor Paul Dundas of a few other points that might >> be relevant to this discussion: >> >> - Paul Dundas (“Somnolent Sūtras: Scriptural Commentary in Śvetāmbara >> Jainism," *Journal of Indian Philosophy* 24: 73–101, 1996) says the >> following (p. 78: see the notes for the sources): >> - The Jain position with regard to scripture and commentary upon >> it, of whatever type or period, is strongly predicated upon the >> acceptance of meaning as being superior to word. This can be seen >> clearly >> from the standard Jain etymology for the term “sūtra” which would >> derive it >> from the root sūc, “indicate.” A sūtra “indicates” many meanings which >> the >> teacher explicates through commentary, obtaining the sense from the >> root >> text in the same manner as a potter creates shapes from a lump of clay. >> - Mari Jvyärsjärvi (“Retrieving the Hidden Meaning: Jain >> Commentarial Techniques and the Art of Memory,” *Journal of Indian >> Philosophy *38.2: 133–162, 2010), cites Saṅghadāsa’s commentary on >> the *Br̥hatkalpa *(p. 138): >> - Sutra [becomes sutta] just like supta; or sūtra has a double >> meaning [ 'sūtra is a thread']. Or it becomes sutta because it >> indicates >> [sūcana] the meaning, or is well-spoken [sūkta]. These are its >> etymologies: >> it 'indicates' or it 'sews,' or also 'it is produced,' or 'it follows.' >> These are the divisions [of etymology], and these are its names. Sūtra >> is >> like a person who is slumbering: unless it is "awakened" by meaning, >> it cannot be known. Or due to the similarity in [words that have] >> double meanings, many meanings are joined together. A needle, even when >> broken, can be traced by the thread as long as it is threaded. Likewise >> meaning [is pointed out] by the sūtra. It 'sews together' words and >> meanings like a thread [sews together] jackets and so on.13 >> - The name of one of the older texts in the Śvētāmbara canon, >> Sūyagaḍa-, is often rendered as Sūtrakr̥ta-, but the first part doesn't >> correspond to the usual development of the Old Indic word sūtra-. Willem >> Bollée suggested that it might come from *sūca-kr̥ta- or *sūca-gata- (in >> his glossary to *Studien zum Sūyagaḍa*, vol. 1, p. 197). Compare the >> Sanskrit word *sūcā*. >> >> Andrew >> >> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:45 PM Andrew Ollett <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Since Rupert asked about the "wider Prakrit evidence," I can just cite >>> the following verse that is included in the "late canonical" Anuyōgadvāra >>> of the Śvētāmbara Jains (p. 91 of vol. 1 of Jambūvijayajī's edition): >>> >>> Sūtram (giving a list of synonyms for suya, i.e., śruta, learning): >>> suya-sutta-gantha-siddhanta-sāsaṇē āṇa-vayaṇa-uvadēsē >>> paṇṇavaṇa-āgamē yā ēgaṭṭhā pajjavā-suttē >>> >>> Cūrṇiḥ of Jinadāsa: gurūhiṁ aṇakkhātaṁ jamhā ṇō bujjhati tamhā >>> pāsuttasamaṁ suttaṁ (i.e. deriving *sutta*- from *supta-*) >>> Vivr̥tiḥ of Haribhadra: sūcanāt sūtram. >>> Vr̥tti of Hēmacandra: arthānāṁ sūcanāt sūtram. >>> >>> The idea of taking *suttam* from the verbal root √*sūc *is clever (via >>> something like *sūk-tra-*), but of course √*sūc *is secondary from √*sū* >>> (via >>> the noun *sū-cī́-*), so maybe it doesn't work. >>> >>> Sanskrit of uktá- usually corresponds to vutta- in Middle Indic >>> (including Ardhamagadhi), and although utta- is used too under the >>> influence of Sanskrit at a later period. >>> >>> Andrew >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:15 PM Dan Lusthaus <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dominik, >>>> >>>> The Aṅguttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would appear to >>>> pose sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what became three piṭakas >>>> (abhidhamma had yet to appear). >>>> >>>> Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one) this way. >>>> >>>> “Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ‘In the presence of the Blessed >>>> One I heard this; in his presence I learned this: “This is the Dhamma; this >>>> is the discipline; this is the Teacher’s teaching!”’ That bhikkhu’s >>>> statement should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or >>>> rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then >>>> check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline.{893} If, >>>> when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, >>>> [you find that] they are not included among the discourses and are not to >>>> be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Surely, this is >>>> not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened >>>> One. It has been badly learned by this bhikkhu.’ Thus you should discard >>>> it. >>>> >>>> “But a bhikkhu might say: ‘In the presence of the Blessed One I heard >>>> this; in his presence I learned this: “This is the Dhamma; this is the >>>> discipline; this is the Teacher’s teaching!”’ That bhikkhu’s statement >>>> should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, >>>> you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them >>>> in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for >>>> them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] >>>> they are included among the discourses and are to be seen in the >>>> discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Surely, this is the word of >>>> the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been >>>> learned well by this bhikkhu.’ You should remember this first great >>>> reference. >>>> >>>> Bhikkhu Bodhi’s note {893} is interesting: >>>> Tāni padabyañjanāni . . . sutte otāretabbāni vinaye sandassetabbāni. Mp >>>> gives various meanings of sutte and vinaye here, some improbable. Clearly, >>>> this instruction presupposes that there already existed a body of >>>> discourses and a systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other >>>> texts proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the Buddha. >>>> Otāretabbāni is gerundive plural of otārenti, “make descend, put down or >>>> put into,” and otaranti, just below, means “descend, come down, go into.” >>>> My renderings, respectively, as “check for them” and “are included among” >>>> are adapted to the context. Sandassetabbāni is gerundive plural of >>>> sandassenti, “show, make seen,” and sandissanti means “are seen.” >>>> >>>> Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds the >>>> commentaries unhelpful or misleading. >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is in the >>>> singular. That suggests, to me, a genre rather than "texts". (I'm not on >>>> secure ground here; my Pali grammar is a bit rusty.) >>>> >>>> On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me that sutta >>>> could be *<sūkta . But I'd like to note that he wasn't dogmatic about it. >>>> It was represented as a possibility. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Dominik >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing >> [email protected]https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <[email protected]>* > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>* > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info> > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >
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