Hi Brynn, Am 20.06.2015 um 20:50 schrieb Brynn: > Hi Maren (and whoever else might be interested), > For the new faq item pointing to the roadmap, I'm thinking in the > first section .... > Did you already do this? Or was it already done, and I didn't > realize it? That's why it's showing unpublished? (banging head smiley > again!) Ok if I add the caution about the flexibility of the roadmap?
- Right, it's already in the FAQ: https://inkscape.org/en/learn/faq/#Will_there_be_an_Inkscape_1.00?_What_would_it_be_like? Yes, please add the note about possible changes / not taking that by the letter there. > Re the list of wiki articles that I thought needed to be added to > documentation, that are currently linked from the faq. Ok, so attached > is a new document I started, with these faq items at the top, and we can > add below as we work through the wiki. - Nice :) > Briefly, it sounds like we agree that #1 and #2 would be good to > be documented. #3 and #4 are no longer applicable (the faq items which > linked to them aren't there anymore -- I think there was some last > minute editing, or otherwise sometime since I wrote that list, that > those items were either dropped or changed, and the info isn't needed). > However, I think it would be awesome to have instructions for compiling, > for all 3 supported systems! - Yes :) But those instructions (esp. the necessary libraries you need to install before you compile) change rapidly (relative to Inkscape-time units :)). I don't know if it is possible to make them so generic as to keep them current for as long as possible. Is compiling a user topic? Or is this developer realm? For me, it's a bit in a grey zone in between, but more on the dev side. Testers would need that. Or people who want to offer Inkscape for download. For the normal users, pre-release versions are available for download for previewing when a new release is nearing, and daily builds for Ubuntu are available all the time, too. I think ~suv is creating OS X builds regularly. Compiling on Linux/Debian-based systems is quite generic and easy, and there's a (mostly, don't know about dependencies) current version on the Wiki: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingUbuntu For Windows, the last update by TheAdib is from last summer: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Creating_Inkscape_distributions#Creating_a_Windows_Distro For OS X, there's a clearly outdated guide: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingMacOsX Oh, oops - I just found that the info *is* already on the website: https://inkscape.org/en/develop/getting-started/ (could probably profit from an update, though) You could add that to the to-do list, to a new 'Website' section, as 'needs update'.... Just like these: https://inkscape.org/en/contribute/testing/, https://inkscape.org/en/develop/debugging/ (that last one might just need a quick glance by someone who knows how it works, could still be current) Yesterday, our translators already complained about outdated/unfinished pages... I couldn't help much with that, unfortunately, besides asking them to concentrate on the other pages... Argh... The devs I had asked - various over time - all forgot about reviewing the page / had other priorities in the end, and I don't want to ask repeatedly... It's not my job to annoy people... > #5 is the Illustrator info. When I first started with Inkscape, > there was some demand for this info. I used to see messages in forums > from Illustrator users wishing to switch over -- at least enough > messages to warrant the article or chapter in the manual. I haven't > seen a message like that for probably.....2 or 3 years. I'm not sure > why. It seems to me that the info should still be relevant (current > info, I mean, current to both programs). > But let's not get too hung up on how to accomplish this stuff. > Let's just make the list for Step 1. And maybe by the time we're done, > we'll be getting some ideas about Step 2. How does that sound? - Reasonable, smart and good :) > Shortly after I send this, I'll add the list of 10 or 15 pages > from the list I told you I had started (separate from the 1 for the > faq), and we can discuss whenever we have time. Does that sound ok? - Yep. Thank you, Brynn! Kind regards, Maren > All best, > brynn > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Maren Hachmann" <ma...@goos-habermann.de> > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 8:52 AM > To: "Brynn" <br...@frii.com>; <inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net> > Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki? > >> Hi Brynn, >> >> Am 20.06.2015 um 06:00 schrieb Brynn: >>> Hi Maren, >>> Out of curiosity, when you type "wik" in you browser, how does it >>> know to find the Inkscape wiki, and not Wikipedia, or Wikimedia, or some >>> other program's wiki, etc? >> >> - The browser proposes the pages I have visited most often first ;) The >> other pages range below in the list it shows me. >> >> >>> If users are looking to the Roadmap as "set in stone" then they >>> simply need to be informed properly. For as long as I've been using >>> Inkscape (8 years), the wiki has been a resource for both users and >>> developers. Most of them have no idea that it's being groomed as >>> 'developer only'. Ask Martin how many times I asked him to confirm >>> that, Yes, the wiki will only be for developers. At least 4 or 5, as I >>> recall. **It's a radical change, and afaik, I'm the only user who knows >>> that.** >> >> - I'm a user, too ;) >> New people who want to download, or learn about Inkscape - at least in >> my google results - are guided to inkscape.org, not to >> wiki.inkscape.org. For the first few weeks that I was here, I didn't >> even know the Wiki existed (until I translated the pages that link to >> it). >> It seems this was different in a time when I haven't been part of the >> project, didn't know that. >> >>> Not only do I have a list of wiki articles that are user-related, >>> that are linked from the FAQ (attached), I actually started to make a >>> list of ALL wiki articles that are for users. But I started getting >>> tripped up when I came to things I didn't understand, and wasn't sure if >>> they were for users or not. >>> I would be glad to start working on that again, if I could get >>> some guidance from you, on pages where I have questions. All I could do >>> is make a list, but that might be a starting place for someone else? >> >> - Sounds like we have a volunteer ;) - seriously, I believe it's a good >> idea to make a list of which info should be accessible more easily to >> users. I can't promise we can take *everything* to the website (esp. >> those things that will be in the manual might not be needed there), but >> we should find out what could be missing, and give it proper thought. >> >>> (Note that when I first started working on the FAQ, I don't think >>> you were involved yet. After I announced some of my work on the dev >>> mailing list, it was Bryce who said that if I found info in the wiki >>> which really should be in the documentation, to make note of it. It's >>> possible that it's not appropriate for some of this to be documented, >>> but that was my best understanding at the time.) >>> I guess the FAQ would be my best idea as the best place for the >>> Roadmap to be linked, if it should not be on the website. But it would >>> go a long way towards preventing users from thinking it's "a done deal" >>> by putting a simple sentence at the top of the page, to that effect. >>> That could also be said in the faq. >>> I was just about to add those couple of links I've been putting >>> off adding. So shall I make the new faq item for the roadmap, while I'm >>> at it? >> >> - Go ahead :) - sounds good to me. >> >>>> - You're quite hardy :) >>>> I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or >>>> 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... >>> >>> Inkscape forums can be quite competitive, as to who gets the right >>> answer. Although it's never really verbalized, many are aware! >>> >>> Where can I look to find out whether a page is outdated or describing a >>> plan? >> >> - Argh. That's difficult. You'd actually need to know the current state >> to *know* if the info is still correct. >> >> So there are a few options: >> - Look at the top of the page. If there's a hint that the info is >> outdated, discard right away. >> >> - Look at the history of the page, to see when it was last changed. This >> is not a really good indicator, because a few things just don't change, >> but it can give you a hint. >> >> - Compare with your own knowledge about the topic. Is it different? >> (That's where it gets difficult... Neither you nor I nor Martin will be >> able to tell that for all wiki pages) >> >> - Ask someone who might know. >> (This is difficult, too - we know that we don't always get answers... >> and that people often react annoyed to this kind of question, or say >> they will help and then never get around to it. This does not have >> priority for many.) >> >> For much of the user-relevant contents, I guess you and I will be able >> to judge if it is current, with the help of suv for OS X questions. >> We might not be able to say this for pages about comparisons with other >> software, which we do not own. >> >> About the attached list of Wiki articles: >> >> - some of the Illustrator stuff seems no longer really necessary, as we >> now have the keyboard shortcut editor, which also has the option to >> choose the Illustrator shortcuts from the dropdown. For the other >> things, I'm not sure a comparison is a good topic for us... >> As both programs have evolved since that article was written, I'm >> inclined to think that much of it will be outdated. If someone made a >> more current comparison, this would be good as some kind of article, >> with version numbers and dates, so everyone can see which versions this >> refers to. >> >> - Latex is important. Should definitely be part of the manual. Or we >> could write some kind of official article, with a date on it and a >> reference to the version number. Problem is, I can't contribute any info >> there. I also don't know who can (in the answers section, these >> questions usually remain unanswered). And the extensions seem to be >> quite buggy currently, anyway... >> >> - Customizing: should be in the manual. Or an article about this would >> be nice. But there's also some work going on on this, so it may be >> subject to change. >> >> - Installing: Hopelessly outdated (3+4 are the same page). AFAIK, people >> usually know what to do with a file they download, anyway - and all the >> other info is already in the FAQ. Or which info on that page should be >> transferred? I might have overlooked something... >> >> >>>> Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can >>>> maybe find a way to include the main components on the website? >>> >>> I don't remember everything I've looked up, but once was info about the >>> new Symbols dialog. And if the new manual comes out pretty soon, I >>> won't have to go to the wiki anymore. >>> This is a whole other subject, but I wish we had like a team to >>> write the manual, so it wouldn't all be on 1 person's shoulders! I >>> mean, Inkscape really should have it's own "official manual", rather >>> than an "official" manual. And imo, the official manual should be on >>> the website. But again, that's another subject. >> >> - Yes, I know. I feel like you do, but I can't start a team for this >> myself. We once had a team who collaboratively wrote a manual, but that >> effort seems to have died... I don't know why, I wasn't around. >> >> What I know is that Tav actually does not make money with the manual, >> and would be delighted if some day, there were an effort made to make a >> real, freely usable, user manual (well, I asked him about the background >> of the 'official' manual being restrictively licenced, and he actually >> took the time to explain to me.) >> >> The difficulty is it would have to start from the FOSS manual and it >> can't copy anything from Tav's guide. >> (when I started using Inkscape, I found Tav's guide quite difficult to >> understand - it was far too technical - so that might not be so bad, in >> the end) >> And of course, we'd need at least 10 people who want to help with that, >> who have the time for this, who have a good command of English, and who >> actually have the knowledge to do so. >> And we'd need someone who knows how to write documentation to guide them. >> This seems unrealistic to me, currently, judging from overall user >> activity on mailing lists etc. ... >> We should open up a 'job wall' somewhere... there a so many vacancies ;) >> >> Kind regards, >> Maren >> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> brynn >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Maren Hachmann" <ma...@goos-habermann.de> >>> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 12:46 PM >>> To: "Brynn" <br...@frii.com>; <inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net> >>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki? >>> >>>> Hi Brynn, >>>> >>>> Am 19.06.2015 um 05:19 schrieb Brynn: >>>>> Hi Maren, >>>>> Yes, I understand that the intent for the wiki is more for >>>>> developers. I didn't mean there should be a more prominent link for >>>>> users to get to the wiki. I meant for developers, but others could >>>>> use >>>>> it too. >>>> >>>> - Mmh. For devs, the link isn't too hidden, I think: >>>> https://inkscape.org/en/develop/ , fourth paragraph >>>> (but also new devs should not rely on the info in the Wiki being up to >>>> date). >>>> >>>> I usually just type 'wik' into my browser's address line, and then >>>> autocompletion kicks in... >>>> >>>>> I don't know. Maybe developers just don't need to go from >>>>> website to wiki. Maybe it's just me. >>>>> But fwiw, what I'm looking for most often is the Release Notes, >>>> >>>> - I think that for the next version we could try and get the Release >>>> Notes on the website when they are finalized. They are an important >>>> part >>>> of the documentation. This will also make it easier for our >>>> translators' >>>> team (who have access to website editing, but most don't have wiki >>>> privileges) to translate them (translating Release Notes is a difficult >>>> task by itself...). >>>> >>>>> Roadmap, >>>> >>>> - The Roadmap is being changed by devs all the time - and users should >>>> not rely on it too much - but unfortunately, they often take it by the >>>> letter, and are then disappointed... It's good info, but I'm a bit >>>> hesitant to put it on the website. Is there a place on the website >>>> which >>>> could profit from a direct link to the Roadmap? >>>> (maybe: The Next Release, FAQ, Features?) >>>> >>>>> and I often search the wiki while trying to answer support >>>>> questions from forums. >>>> >>>> - You're quite hardy :) >>>> I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or >>>> 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... >>>> Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can >>>> maybe find a way to include the main components on the website? >>>> >>>>> And for the latter, this is especially more for >>>>> the new-in-0.91-features, because the manual hasn't been updated, >>>>> and a >>>>> lot of the new features are explained in the wiki. Once the manual is >>>>> updated, I won't be in the wiki as much. >>>> >>>> - Tav told me he'd take care of this soon. But it's an awful lot of >>>> work >>>> (so many new features ;) ), so it may still take a while. >>>> >>>>> (There IS a lot of user-focused stuff in the wiki! I >>>>> started to >>>>> work on some of it, thinking maybe it could be updated and moved to >>>>> the >>>>> website, like I did with the faq. But almost all of it is over my >>>>> head. >>>>> I did make a list of the ones that are referenced in the faq, >>>>> hoping to at least get that much transferred over. >>>> >>>> - Could you share that list? >>>> >>>> But afaik, no one >>>>> has updated them or moved to the website.) >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> Maren >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> brynn >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Maren Hachmann" <ma...@goos-habermann.de> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:26 PM >>>>> To: <inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki? >>>>> >>>>>> Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn: >>>>>>> Hi Friends, >>>>>>> This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a >>>>>>> Favorite/Bookmark >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> website? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Brynn, >>>>>> >>>>>> depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. >>>>>> Is it for learning? >>>>>> >>>>>> I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their >>>>>> ideas. >>>>>> Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or >>>>>> only >>>>>> important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live there, >>>>>> because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were >>>>>> finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki >>>>>> than on >>>>>> the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...). >>>>>> >>>>>> What are your use cases? >>>>>> Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Maren >>>>>> >>>>>>> Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near the >>>>>>> bottom >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All best, >>>>>>> brynn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Inkscape-docs mailing list >>>>>>> Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Inkscape-docs mailing list >>>>>> Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
