> -----Original Message----- > From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Your initial message didn't include a single proposed > solution. The only > thing that could even be considered close is the very last sentence: > > Hopefully belts will be tightened up around the extensions and the > responsibility taken up by their authors. > > If there is something else in there that you consider a > proposal, please > point me at it.
That is one path that should be considered...how to,if at all possible, tighten things up around extensions that are made available as part of standard distribution. Make them show stoppers if thats what is needed. The reason I left it slightly high level was to let others also do some thinking. This path would need more community feedback as to how to acceptably do it ...if it can be done. The second suggestion was in the second last paragraph in my 2nd email. 2nd sugesstion is an excellent way to tighten things up. But since this is a community, lets see if the community likes it or what other effective alternatives they can think of. -Roshan > -----Original Message----- > From: Naik, Roshan > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 2:14 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] Unfulfilled promises... forever experimental > extensions... all over again > > > Rasmus wrote: > >> Really ? Are you sure ? > >> http://www.zend.com/zend/week/week146.php > > > Ok, one self-serving fix. > > I was (again) expecting exactly that kind of response. I dont > understand why so much arrogance exists among a select few. And > it unfortunately reflects the community's attitude. > > So nobody till date or in future will benefit from the fix right ? > A self-serving fix may be today. But a problem waiting to happen > on other platforms anytime(if not happened already). > But lets leave that issue off to the side, its a red herring as > far as the central issue here is concerned. > > > Rasmus wrote: > > So, how about proposing an actual solution instead of pissing > > off the very > > people who you will need help from to improve things? > > I dont beleive all the people are being pissed off. They are just > not speaking up their concerns (given up hope?) > I dont see why anyone pointing out a problem is pissing _you_ off. > Perhaps then every individual filing a bug report > should be pissing you off too. They should be asked to > go fix it themselves...and not bother anyone here as they are > not part of the "inner-circle" or "the community". > > > Rasmus wrote: > > Some don't contribute anything, but they > > are still part of this community. By being part of the > community you have > > a voice and through our extremely open approach you can > easily contribute > > your code and ideas. > > In theory. But clear evidence to the contrary here. > > > Rasmus wrote: > > This > > solution may > > be a set of general criteria an extension has to meet to leave its > > experimental state, a set of test tools, or a group of > > developers that you > > convince with your obvious social skills to contribute to > this effort. > > > I am glad to see a slight progress from "please bring up > concrete problems" to "please bring up actual solutions" > > I already proposed a couple solutions in my 1st and 2nd emails. > Please review them again. More solutions will come once people > take up the problem seriously. > > > Thomas wrote: > > Actually, MS has a responsibility to make money, and as you > said, there is > > no way get everybody over to FF. > > Also it is not entirely correct to say that no one behind > the curtains of PHP internals isn't making money off of PHP. > Some do some dont..directly or indirectly. But this topic is also a > red herring to the central discussion. So lets leave it alone. > > Rasmus wrote: > > Then you better put on some protection, because this isn't going to > > change. Like I said, we develop software for ourselves, not for > > customers. > > Not all opensource projects suffer from the same > problems that PHP (more accurately a select few here) > is exhibiting. > > > As the previosly quoted user said .... > > <quote> > "Open Source" is a philosophy. It shouldn't be an excuse. > </quote> > > > > We welcome contributions, but we react rather badly when > > people come along and demand that we volunteer more of our time. > > So far no one demanded to volunteer more time. Just requested > to prioritize things that more important, higher. > > In much of the propaganda about PHP5 I read, Did i read anything > outright calling out the fact that "php5 is not backward compatible" ? > no! > > Nor did I see anything that said, "hey we have these new features, > but you have to fix them before using them". If someone else > in "real life" did that to you... you would be upset too. > > > PHP releases seem to be driven more by whats important for the "oomph > factor" to make a big splash. Clearly something has to be learnt from > the other lowly languages. > > > In another mail (about apache2 support) I saw PHP's virtues > being extolled > as "PHP is the glue". And that its strong point is that it > allows users > to tie all kinds of disparate functionality ( xml , image > editing, etc ) > together. > > The quality of most of that "glue" and its usefulness is > being question. > And some evidently dont like it. > > > Andi wrote: > > I suggest we stop this thread now. It's just taking up time > we could use to > > more fruitfully in improving PHP. Please move any further > rants off the > > internals mailing list and keep them personal. > > So these are all "useless rants" and wont improve PHP ? I > hope its a personal > opinion. This is a nice way to snub off concrete problems. > > > Andi wrote: > > I do think that if there are some concrete suggestions to > be heard that's > > fine, but try and keep it short, to the point, and constructive. > > > So none of the suggestions were constructive ? or perhaps you didnt > read them. > > > > Andi wrote: > > Personally, I agree that the "Fix it yourself" argument is > not a good one > > and isn't always relevant > > > Acknowledged several times before...but agressively misused till date. > > > Andi wrote: > >, but if you'd look not at what developers say > > after you piss them off with such emails, > > Why does it piss them off ? What is "such emails" ? This is > nothing personal. > A select few are indeed taking it personally. But I dont beleive this > reflects the community at large. > > This is purely bringing up an issue that is a problem in > "real life" and > is not a problem for "the experimenting engineer". > > > Andi wrote: > > but how the PHP development team > > has worked in real life, > > Thats a blanket generalization...to the point of aggressive > ignorance and > silly complacency. > > This is nothing but a "real life" problem we are talking about. > > So far.. some people seem to be interested in attacking > peripheral issues > like ... "you didnt contribute a damn thing" ...."this is a > useless rant" > "nobody is making money here" ..."fix it youself" ..."not a > good quote" > ... "thats a self-serving fix" > > In another 2 years (on the 6th epxerimental birthday for sockets ) > and PHP6 is released, everyone will have forgotten about what > PHP5 didnt deliver ...or even less of what PHP4 promised & > didnt deliver. > Somebody will again notice the repetition of promises > and point it out ... and get snubbed. > > Such snubbing off is the prime reason why most people prefer to > stay quiet right now. I remember aggressive (but weak) justifications > to why PHP's OO model was the right way for PHP .. and now > here we are! > > > Hiding (in the bowels of documentation and source code) > the fact that the "banner features" are not ready > ... is dishonesty. Lets not do that. > > -Roshan > -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
