On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 02:56 +0000, Steph wrote: > > I just like PHP enough that rather than switch languages, I would like > > to attempt to make PHP better. I've only been working with the PHP > > source since November and I'm 19 > > Right, that'd explain it. It's just that usually people do a bit of PHP > development (websites, applications, whatever) or throw out a couple of > classes, or _something_ that Google can find anyways, before they start > telling the core PHP dev team they're doing it all wrong.
Time out. I didn't say anyone was "doing it all wrong". And I've been developing in PHP for about 4 years. I am Zend certified and I have a full time job developing in PHP with people twice my age and years of experience. Not at all bragging, but I am far from the beginner who's speaking what he doesn't know. Just because my code isn't on google doesn't mean I haven't done any. If you want to see some stuff I've done just let me know I will gladly send it to you. Plus the fact that I'm obviously not stupid and I have some idea what I'm doing if I am writing patches for the PHP core with no prior experience. > so I haven't been around for many prior > > contributions to PHP; that's probably why you haven't heard of me. I > > started messing with the source and about a week later I had the type > > hinting and superglobal patches done, and I joined internals. > No, you subscribed to the internals mailing list. Ok, wording mistake. > > > I completely understand the disadvantages to multiple inheritance so > > I've kind of dropped that, I support custom superglobals but I can > > understand why they are unwanted, but scalar type hinting I think should > > be in PHP. I have written all 3 of these patches but this is the one I'm > > pushing for mostly. I'm using the superglobal patch for my own > > development, and I have multiple inheritance working, but I don't want > > to have to rewrite the patch every time php changes. > > So far, fair enough. > > > And these reasons you're talking about that Stas brought up, I don't see > > any reasons besides the fact that it may confuse newcomers and it's too > > "javaish". > > 'It may confuse newcomers' is a big issue in PHP. Ease of takeup is the > mainspring of the language's design. The other point Stas made that you > appear to have missed is that loose typing is very much a PHP feature. It's > one of the things that helps make the language easy for newcomers, and it > also means the language is more forgiving than others. OO is a different > matter because you get different *types* of objects. You don't get different > *types* of strings, integers or floats, or at least, not to the same degree. > People using PHP shouldn't have to know about those differences unless they > really need to. > Ok then. This is understood, that's why newcomers shouldn't use type hinting. Are you saying we should hold back new features because they might confuse beginners? I used PHP for quite a while before using any object oriented stuff. When I was ready, I started doing object oriented programming. Also, I didn't say we should throw away loose typing. This is not at all strict typing. This is optionally type hinting specified function arguments. There is a big difference. > Performance is not an issue here, especially for those who > > don't use type hinting. For those who don't want to use it they don't > > have to because it's optional. > > It's optional, sure, but it's one more thing that every newbie will need to > be aware of before s/he can call himself a PHP developer. Every one of those > optional features that is added to the language is another barrier against > takeup. > How complicated is it? Is it any worse than array type hinting? Should we sacrifice functionality in order to make it as easy as possible to master PHP? Programming is hard. If you have enough intelligence to call yourself a PHP Developer then you can surely understand the difference between an integer and a string. > > Any other arguments can be countered by the fact that if type hinting is > > not proper in the situation, don't use it. If you want to, then use it. > > Everybody wins. Plus the majority on here seems to agree with me. > > > > Type hinting is already in PHP. It's been in PHP. Why not add a couple > > of useful types? I don't see any debate here. > You, a handful of list lurkers, Jochem hanging in there for his > one-man-crusade (he wants to formalize PHP core development so much that > nobody will do it for pleasure ever again), Derick inexplicably backing you. > Nobody else even bothering to argue because Stas seems to be doing the job > fairly well all by himself right now. Johannes quite rightly won't introduce > type hinting for scalars without a mandate, and there doesn't appear to be > one right now. If it _is_ accepted it'll most likely be in PHP 6 not 5.3 > anyway, because 5.3's features were agreed (and limited) a couple of months > ago. Ok, if you say so. But I see many PHP developers/users pushing for type hinting. Even if I was a naive list lurking PHP beginner who has only written a couple of classes, I am not necessarily wrong because of it. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
