Have you seen some of the third party vendor does not fully comply with the
Java spec ?

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:30 PM
To: jdjlist
Subject: [jdjlist] RE: Write Once, Run Anywhere - yes


hi there!
as it was one of my postings that greg was quoting and which made him tell
his personal experiences with porting of C/C++ code in the first place,

I just have to say briefly: I'm with you, greg ;o)

and one more thing: I managed to accumulate 16 programming languages since I
started on the C64 some years ago... of course not all of them I used to the
extent to which I did use C/C++ 
and java. but none - including C/C++ with various standard libraries, ANSI
conformity and the like - ever came close to the ease of deploying java apps
on any plattform. it does not work in 100% of the cases, agreed. but better
to have it work in 95% of the cases out of the box without *any* changes
than hassling around with recompilation (be there standardized libraries or
not - i only say: different primitive type sizes, memory models etc...) and
the java platform does of course have the one or the other bug (see the
recent postings about CSS/JEditorPane...) but which complex piece of
software doesn't? and at least the sun-people talk about "bugs" and not 
"issues" like some other well-known software vendor... ;o) cheers

> OK, Lai.
>  
> *sigh*
>  
> DO check your earlier post from Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:31 PM,
> PLEASE...(Hint: scroll down the page, read from the bottom...)
>  
> You were not talking about Java. You were talking about C/C++ and *my* 
> alleged ability (or lack thereof, according to you) to use C utilities 
> (like
> autoconf) and port C code (like your favorite SDL library) and how 
> easy it is (according to you) to port the aforementioned C code.  You 
> also motioned, I believe, that it takes a good programmer to paint a 
> good picture (with C,
> I presume), alleging that I am not one of these exalted master-painters
> (which, if I may point out,  I never claimed to be in the first place,
> just
> giving one particular anecdotal C developer story from 3 years ago)
>  
> Ahhhh.... for me to point out to you what you just said is plain 
> embarrassing...
>  
> <unfounded assumption>
> you really underestimate by Java knowledge
> </unfounded assumption>
>  
> I would *never* (and I have not) said such a thing, or anything that 
> can be interpreted (to my knowledge) in this fashion... Do, please 
> quote which part
> of my post(s) made you think that?
>  
> <random snip>
> those really expert might laughing loudly.
> </random snip>
>  
> Yes, we are.
>  
> Greg
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lai Kok Cheong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:03 PM
> To: jdjlist
> Subject: [jdjlist] RE: Write Once, Run Anywhere - yes
> 
> 
> Hi Greg,
>             I'm not a C or C++ enthusiast.I choose the language based 
> of the purpose of the project.Of course my personal preferences would 
> be Java.If not for sure I would not join the mailing list.
>  
>             
>  
> If I may be permmited to point out:
>  
> 1) you have no idea what caused those compile errors
> Lets be professional  on this matter.If you think my wording sound like a
> personal attack to someone, I'm sorry. But to clear the cloud, you really
> underestimate by Java knowledge though I would not say I'm expert since it
> would sound like too snobbish , and those really expert might laughing
> loudly.
>  
>  
>              
>  
> 2) you have never seen that code
>  
> Java code ? Come on man.I have use Java for a very long time. Though I 
> might not be a guru , but by no means the experiences count.
>  
> I have seen someone said  the code is not portable and complaining 
> here and there but in reality they did not  stick to the Java way of 
> writing code.
>  
> The strength of java lies in Interface and abstract class, though some 
> java critique might say the other way around.
>  
> What I wanted to point out though using C as exemplarily , is to use 
> the method that mades the language portable.
>  
> I don't want to use another language examples again  but I really 
> tempt to.To an extend, you could write a portable asm code !
>  
> Just need to learn how to do the nice thing.
>  
> But of course if you're talking to Thread implementation, I can't help 
> you here.
>  
>  
>  
> Look at the Weblogic way of implementing portable code for is apps 
> server ( I use it for example and I didn't receive any pay from them 
> ;-)). In windows
> it have .DLL in Solaris .so ...
>  
> And also for Postgresql JDBC library.Try compiling the source from 
> Linux and windows.And you'll see what I mean.
>  
> And for jdbc bugs, I do aggress to some extend the platform specific 
> code was not implement properly.That in turns the bug submerge.
>  
> Writing a portable code is not a easy task.You need to know which  
> portion of logic/module is a platform specific one and segregate it.
>  
> Maybe there is a lack of a blueprint from Sun itself.But as you go on 
> , you will definitely have your own set of unofficial .20 cents tips.
>  
>              
>  
>  
> 3) if you like to use C so much, why on Earth do you bother us nice 
> Java folks? To throw a cold water for those like to throw a flame war 
> ;-)
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Nudelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 12:02 AM
> To: jdjlist
> Subject: [jdjlist] RE: Write Once, Run Anywhere - yes
>  
> Well, it's only Thursday, but if it's flame war you want, let the 
> games begin!!
>  
> <personal attack>
> That's if you donno how to use make and autoconf utility ?
> </personnal attack>
>  
> If I may be permmited to point out:
>  
> 1) you have no idea what caused those compile errors
> 2) you have never seen that code
> 3) if you like to use C so much, why on Earth do you bother us nice Java
> folks?
>  
> <blanket statement>
> One of the nice example is SDL library.The library could compile 
> nicely in both windows and linux.Who say C++ is not portable ? 
> </blanket statement>
>  
> I esp. like the "*could* compile nicely" ... that is a nice touch! 
> hahahahha
>  
> <hiku.beautiful imagery>
> Is depend on how the programmer paint the picture.A bad and 
> unexperienced painter would made a bad painting.... </hiku.beautiful 
> imagery>
>  
> programmer paints
> seeplus plus
> white lotus
> delicate petals
> stinking bog
>  
>  
> Hiku War! Hiku War!
>  
> HAHAHAHAHAHA
>  
> Greg
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lai Kok Cheong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:31 PM
> To: jdjlist
> Subject: [jdjlist] RE: Write Once, Run Anywhere - yes
> That's if you donno how to use make and autoconf utility ? One of the 
> nice example is SDL library.The library could compile nicely in both 
> windows and linux.Who say C++ is not portable ?
>  
> Is depend on how the programmer paint the picture.A bad and 
> unexperienced painter would made a bad painting....
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Nudelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 11:57 PM
> To: jdjlist
> Subject: [jdjlist] RE: Write Once, Run Anywhere - yes
>  
> <snip good stuff>
> did anyone ever try to "port" (hahaha...) even a simple C/C++ 
> app from one platform to another which was not explicitely 
> designed for this (ANSI C/C++, only standard libraries which are 
> not very powerful...and even then: some primitive types are of different 
> sizes on almost every compiler, and not all developers are aware of the 
> "sizeof" 
> operator...), let alone a GUI app or programs that use 
> a lot of networking code or the like? 
> </snip good stuff> 
> Yeah, I tried that once... I wrote a simple 2000 line program in M$FT
> Visual
> C++ (worked fine) and tried to make it run on Unix.  The first thing I 
> C++ got
> >from gcc was 37 compile errors... You will never have this happen 
> >with
> Java.
> Java is a much nicer environment to play with.  Automatic garbage 
> collection, interfaces and full OO design features, decent standard 
> libs, automatic memory management, and if you know the language fairly 
> well, you can, in most instances, write very fast/efficient code 
> without making it unreadable.  Yeah, Java needs a little tweaking now 
> and then.  Big deal!! That's what keeps me employed. Oh, eah, and did 
> I mention, I never had a single javac fail with 37 compile
> errors for a working program? 
> Maybe someday M$FT.NET's code portability will catch up to Java.  For now,
> given the M$FT strategy of exlusivitiy, there is simply no way for that to
> happen.  They make the $ in M$FT by being an exclusive monopoly.
> Greg 
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