well, if so, that is hardly the fault of the language or the spec itself, is it? think of C++, a great basic concept (the core language!) which was heavily "fragmented" by the different and often contradicting concepts of the various tool vendors, because there is no such thing like a spec for the whole of it. languages like that do not consist of the some 40 keywords that may (or may not...) be the same on different systems/platforms. it's the tools, libraries and frameworks that count. and the missing compatibility there made porting of code a pain and most of the time not "porting" but "re-developing". in that respect JAVA was the first serious attempt (while far from beeing perfect!) to try to come up with a spec that is - at least to a certain level - the same on all HW and SW platforms, and that without any vendor lock in. you are free to choose from a multitude of commercial and free tools. If some (!) of them don't comply, so be it - choose the one's that do. you can't force anyone to comply with standards, but does that mean standardization is bad? and after all, this is a JAVA list, so naturally the people here are fond of it. Personally I would not prowl around on .net lists pointing out how dislikeable that stuff is ;o) I just like freedom of choice and the ability of relatively easy porting which is - at least at the moment - unparalleled. cheers
> Have you seen some of the third party vendor does not fully comply with > the Java spec ? > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:30 PM > To: jdjlist > Subject: [jdjlist] RE: Write Once, Run Anywhere - yes > > > hi there! > as it was one of my postings that greg was quoting and which made him tell > his personal experiences with porting of C/C++ code in the first place, > > I just have to say briefly: I'm with you, greg ;o) > > and one more thing: I managed to accumulate 16 programming languages since > I > started on the C64 some years ago... of course not all of them I used to > the > extent to which I did use C/C++ > and java. but none - including C/C++ with various standard libraries, ANSI > conformity and the like - ever came close to the ease of deploying java > apps > on any plattform. it does not work in 100% of the cases, agreed. but > better > to have it work in 95% of the cases out of the box without *any* changes > than hassling around with recompilation (be there standardized libraries > or > not - i only say: different primitive type sizes, memory models etc...) > and > the java platform does of course have the one or the other bug (see the > recent postings about CSS/JEditorPane...) but which complex piece of > software doesn't? and at least the sun-people talk about "bugs" and not > "issues" like some other well-known software vendor... ;o) cheers > > > OK, Lai. > > > > *sigh* > > > > DO check your earlier post from Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:31 PM, > > PLEASE...(Hint: scroll down the page, read from the bottom...) > > > > You were not talking about Java. You were talking about C/C++ and *my* > > alleged ability (or lack thereof, according to you) to use C utilities > > (like > > autoconf) and port C code (like your favorite SDL library) and how > > easy it is (according to you) to port the aforementioned C code. You > > also motioned, I believe, that it takes a good programmer to paint a > > good picture (with C, > > I presume), alleging that I am not one of these exalted master-painters > > (which, if I may point out, I never claimed to be in the first place, > > just > > giving one particular anecdotal C developer story from 3 years ago) > > > > Ahhhh.... for me to point out to you what you just said is plain > > embarrassing... > > > > <unfounded assumption> > > you really underestimate by Java knowledge > > </unfounded assumption> > > > > I would *never* (and I have not) said such a thing, or anything that > > can be interpreted (to my knowledge) in this fashion... Do, please > > quote which part > > of my post(s) made you think that? > > > > <random snip> > > those really expert might laughing loudly. > > </random snip> > > > > Yes, we are. > > > > Greg > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lai Kok Cheong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:03 PM > > To: jdjlist > > Subject: [jdjlist] RE: Write Once, Run Anywhere - yes > > > > > > Hi Greg, > > I'm not a C or C++ enthusiast.I choose the language based > > of the purpose of the project.Of course my personal preferences would > > be Java.If not for sure I would not join the mailing list. > > > > > > > > If I may be permmited to point out: > > > > 1) you have no idea what caused those compile errors > > Lets be professional on this matter.If you think my wording sound like > a > > personal attack to someone, I'm sorry. But to clear the cloud, you > really > > underestimate by Java knowledge though I would not say I'm expert since > it > > would sound like too snobbish , and those really expert might laughing > > loudly. > > > > > > > > > > 2) you have never seen that code > > > > Java code ? Come on man.I have use Java for a very long time. Though I > > might not be a guru , but by no means the experiences count. > > > > I have seen someone said the code is not portable and complaining > > here and there but in reality they did not stick to the Java way of > > writing code. > > > > The strength of java lies in Interface and abstract class, though some > > java critique might say the other way around. > > > > What I wanted to point out though using C as exemplarily , is to use > > the method that mades the language portable. > > > > I don't want to use another language examples again but I really > > tempt to.To an extend, you could write a portable asm code ! > > > > Just need to learn how to do the nice thing. > > > > But of course if you're talking to Thread implementation, I can't help > > you here. > > > > > > > > Look at the Weblogic way of implementing portable code for is apps > > server ( I use it for example and I didn't receive any pay from them > > ;-)). In windows > > it have .DLL in Solaris .so ... > > > > And also for Postgresql JDBC library.Try compiling the source from > > Linux and windows.And you'll see what I mean. > > > > And for jdbc bugs, I do aggress to some extend the platform specific > > code was not implement properly.That in turns the bug submerge. > > > > Writing a portable code is not a easy task.You need to know which > > portion of logic/module is a platform specific one and segregate it. > > > > Maybe there is a lack of a blueprint from Sun itself.But as you go on > > , you will definitely have your own set of unofficial .20 cents tips. > > > > > > > > > > 3) if you like to use C so much, why on Earth do you bother us nice > > Java folks? To throw a cold water for those like to throw a flame war > > ;-) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Greg Nudelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 12:02 AM > > To: jdjlist > > Subject: [jdjlist] RE: Write Once, Run Anywhere - yes > > > > Well, it's only Thursday, but if it's flame war you want, let the > > games begin!! > > > > <personal attack> > > That's if you donno how to use make and autoconf utility ? > > </personnal attack> > > > > If I may be permmited to point out: > > > > 1) you have no idea what caused those compile errors > > 2) you have never seen that code > > 3) if you like to use C so much, why on Earth do you bother us nice Java > > folks? > > > > <blanket statement> > > One of the nice example is SDL library.The library could compile > > nicely in both windows and linux.Who say C++ is not portable ? > > </blanket statement> > > > > I esp. like the "*could* compile nicely" ... that is a nice touch! > > hahahahha > > > > <hiku.beautiful imagery> > > Is depend on how the programmer paint the picture.A bad and > > unexperienced painter would made a bad painting.... </hiku.beautiful > > imagery> > > > > programmer paints > > seeplus plus > > white lotus > > delicate petals > > stinking bog > > > > > > Hiku War! Hiku War! > > > > HAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > Greg > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lai Kok Cheong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 11:31 PM > > To: jdjlist > > Subject: [jdjlist] RE: Write Once, Run Anywhere - yes > > That's if you donno how to use make and autoconf utility ? One of the > > nice example is SDL library.The library could compile nicely in both > > windows and linux.Who say C++ is not portable ? > > > > Is depend on how the programmer paint the picture.A bad and > > unexperienced painter would made a bad painting.... > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Greg Nudelman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 11:57 PM > > To: jdjlist > > Subject: [jdjlist] RE: Write Once, Run Anywhere - yes > > > > <snip good stuff> > > did anyone ever try to "port" (hahaha...) even a simple C/C++ > > app from one platform to another which was not explicitely > > designed for this (ANSI C/C++, only standard libraries which are > > not very powerful...and even then: some primitive types are of different > > > sizes on almost every compiler, and not all developers are aware of the > > "sizeof" > > operator...), let alone a GUI app or programs that use > > a lot of networking code or the like? > > </snip good stuff> > > Yeah, I tried that once... I wrote a simple 2000 line program in M$FT > > Visual > > C++ (worked fine) and tried to make it run on Unix. The first thing I > > C++ got > > >from gcc was 37 compile errors... You will never have this happen > > >with > > Java. > > Java is a much nicer environment to play with. Automatic garbage > > collection, interfaces and full OO design features, decent standard > > libs, automatic memory management, and if you know the language fairly > > well, you can, in most instances, write very fast/efficient code > > without making it unreadable. Yeah, Java needs a little tweaking now > > and then. Big deal!! That's what keeps me employed. Oh, eah, and did > > I mention, I never had a single javac fail with 37 compile > > errors for a working program? > > Maybe someday M$FT.NET's code portability will catch up to Java. For > now, > > given the M$FT strategy of exlusivitiy, there is simply no way for that > to > > happen. They make the $ in M$FT by being an exclusive monopoly. > > Greg > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to jdjlist as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://www.sys-con.com/fusetalk > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to jdjlist as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://www.sys-con.com/fusetalk > > > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to jdjlist as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To > > unsubscribe send a blank email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://www.sys-con.com/fusetalk > > > > -- > +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ > Bitte l�cheln! Fotogalerie online mit GMX ohne eigene Homepage! > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to jdjlist as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To > unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.sys-con.com/fusetalk > > --- > You are currently subscribed to jdjlist as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.sys-con.com/fusetalk > -- +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ Jetzt ein- oder umsteigen und USB-Speicheruhr als Pr�mie sichern! --- You are currently subscribed to jdjlist as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sys-con.com/fusetalk
