Venkat yr voice is too feeble mate. Zero deciblels.You donot know the
difference between exercising your rights and complaining like a small kid.U
are kid who has just identified himself with a new toy -Conversion. You are
afraid someone might snatch that new toy from you because you identofy yourself
with this new toy.. Its not as if you are genuinely interested in "Indic
people"The same people who you so fondly call"My indic people" will throw you
out if you try to reconvert them.
********************************************************
Ignorant upstarts like you, venkat, make life very entertaining for the rest
of us intelligent.
Cheers Buddy
isaac
ven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 5/2/08, isaac verghese <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: How come
none of the converts are complaining? If they are happy, what is your problem,
venkat. Why are you interested in whats boiling in others pot.Why don't you
just mind you own business? U speak as if hordes of converts landed up in your
door step asking for succour- " help me venkat I am being crucified by these
christian missionaries ".
Isaac, the great
The converts who are tribals in this case.... are of my indic religion. I
have a right to protect my religion and my people against violent, aggressive
proselytization which ends up dividing communities and creating social
disharmony when none existed previously. I also have a duty to expose
fraudulent, coercive, unethical missionary activities.
Where-ever Christianity has gone, natives and native religoins have suffered.
Be it amongst North American natives, South American natives, Africa,
Aborogines of Australia, Maoris of News Zealand and on and on.
I have an absolute right to raise an aloarm on destruction of tribal beliefs
and religions in my country which is India. We do not want them to go the
Nagaland way, where the separatist war cry is nagaland for Christ!
Christian conversion threatens hill tribe culture
By Marwaan Macan-Markar
MAE YAO, Thailand - The hill tribes of northern Thailand have survived
centuries of displacement, hardship and discrimination. But now their uniquely
colorful culture is under a new threat, albeit a well-meaning one: Christian
evangelism.
Ake Chermu has a pivotal role in this village, where faith in animism runs
deep. Ake, 67, is the shaman, the religious leader who keeps alive the
ceremonies associated with the rice harvest or when new homes of bamboo are
built.
For the moment, this community of the Akha hill tribe in northern Thailand's
Chiang Rai province still honors Ake. They let him lead them in the close to 20
religious rituals, some of them including animal sacrifices, that they have
across the year.
Yet the shaman turns melancholy as he ponders on how long this essential
feature of Akha life will be around. "I am worried about the change. Because to
be Akha, you have to follow all the rituals," said Ake, who cuts a quiet figure
with his small build, his watery brown eyes and his soft voice.
The source of his worry lies in a neighboring Akha village - Christianity has
made its presence felt there, causing the community to trade the shaman and
animism for the Bible and monotheism.
On Sundays, this village exudes an air of enthusiasm toward this new faith as
people sing hymns to the accompaniment of guitars in two churches and listen to
young preachers deliver passionate sermons.
For women such as Mi Pa, 41, a recent convert to the Baptist Church, her Akha
village has put a stop to events that marked the Akha culture - the annual
swing ceremony, building the wooden spirit gate and the harvest festivals.
"The priest asked us to stop the old traditions, which included worshipping
spirits," she said. "Now we have Christmas. The entire village celebrates."
But now, it is not only the likes of Ake who are troubled by this shift to
Christianity among the Akha, one of the six main tribal communities that have
carved out a colorful niche in this mountainous part of the country along the
Myanmar border.
Concern is increasingly being expressed also from an unlikely quarter - tour
guides who operate in Chiang Rai.
After all, the hill tribes are the main draw that attracts tourists in the
thousands to northern Thailand - a fact amplified by the posters and postcards
of the hill-tribe people that are visible in the local airport and in the shop
windows along Chiang Rai's narrow streets.
"Tourists come here expecting to see a village that is very authentic and
typical of the hill tribe culture. So they are not happy when they find
churches in the villages," said Charlie Keereekhamsuk, a tourist guide for more
than six years.
An increasing number of guides and tour companies are opting against taking
tourists to villages where the people have converted to Christianity, he said.
"There is a big difference in the village culture after the churches have come
in. In Akha villages, it is very clear."
An Akha cultural-rights activist is hardly surprised by such growing concern,
given the inroads that church groups, largely from the United States, have made
over past 40 years.
"They have succeeded in converting close to 50 percent of the Akha villages in
Thailand, and they are aggressively going after the rest," said Mathew McDaniel
of the Akha Heritage Foundation, based in the Thai town of Mae Sai.
"Tourists don't want to see these tribal people with a church foisted on them,"
he said. "They are offended by what is happening: people being made clones of
groups like the Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, other Protestant churches
and Catholics from Italy."
One day, McDaniel argues, the Akha identity in this part of Thailand may well
cease to exist. "Their rituals, the spirit healing, belief in animism is what
makes them Akha. It gives them their cultural identity, their unique place in
the world."
Pastor Kenu Chalermliamthong, however, sees it differently. The hill-tribe
people can still retain their culture even after converting, since it is "only
one aspect of their lives - religion", said Kenu, a Baptist minister who
belongs to the Karen hill tribe.
The churches are not asking the hill tribes to change their clothes or the way
they live, he added. "But when they convert, the people have to give up their
old customs and habits, superstitions and faith in animism."
Currently, there are more than 70,000 Akha living in close to 300 villages
spread across the forested parts of northern Thailand. Besides the Akha, the
other ethnic groups who make up the nearly 1 million hill-tribe population in
this Southeast Asian country are the Lahu, Lisu, Yao, Hmong and Karen.
The majority of Thailand's 62 million people are Buddhists and the country
respects the individual's right to religious freedom. Consequently, the local
media, government officials and the Buddhist clergy have treated as a non-issue
the spread of Christianity among the hill-tribe people reputed for their belief
in animism.
"Thai governments have shown little attention to the hill-tribe communities,"
Chayan Vaddhanaphuti, an anthropologist at Chiang Mai University, said in an
interview. "They have also ignored them on economic and social matters."
Studies done by Chayan have revealed that the hill-tribe people often convert
because of the perceived benefits church groups offer. "They are assured
education, scholarships and health services," he said. "It is these benefits
and not religious passion that have attracted more hill-tribe people to
convert."
In this new religious environment, "the shamans and the spirit and cultural
leaders have no place", Chayan said. "The old, traditional knowledge that has
been passed down to the community comes to an end."
According to Budsaba Maiwong of the Chiang Rai-based Mae Salong Tour Co, visits
to the hill-tribe villages and overnight stays are what 70 percent of the
tourists arriving in Chiang Rai request. "It is so popular because it is
unique, the way the hill-tribe people live, the way they dress. It is different
from the rest of the country."
These semi-nomadic people migrated to Thailand from Burma (now Myanmar),
southern China and Tibet a long time ago, and have lived on mountain slopes in
villages that appear untouched by the many advances in modernity. An Akha
house, for instance, is made of bamboo and has no windows and food is prepared
over an open fire.
It is shamans such as Ake who helped give these semi-nomadic communities their
unique character by keeping alive the flame of animism. "You cannot be a proper
Akha person, relate to our history, ancestors, if you give up spirit worship,"
he said.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/EH29Ae01.html.
If you think you follow a superior religion and have the spiritual courage,
try reconverting one. Make sure you donot get converted yourself. I doubt if
you will be able to reconvert even one with or without using "Rice" (Money).
If you donot understand the connection between feeding the poor and religion
mate, then it speaks volumes about your spirituality. You are worse than the
Rice missionaries. Venkat you live up to this slogan "Moo mein Ram bhagal mein
chura"
Isaac
ven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 5/1/08, isaac verghese <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thats
probably the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. Jesus could not help
himself.............how many Hindu gods are alive, Vikash? Sorry if I am rude.
Jesus could not help himself but he helped a lot of people. Your young
immature mind , Vikash,will find that very difficult to comprehend mate. Try to
become a better Hindu first , before you accuse others of converting.Have you
ever bought lunch for a poor adivasi or a poor Hindu for that matter? That wud
be too much to expect from a bitter person like you.People living in glass
house should not ...................
Isaac
Isaac,
Eg Lord Vishnu descended on earth as Rama's incarnation. The point is why do
you emphasize, Jesus died so that he can save others. WE never hear a statement
that Krishna, or Rama died so that they can save us. It is kind of
contradictory. Our gods are eternal. Only a spark of them comes to earth as
Rama, Krishna for a particular purpose. In fact all of us are sparks of god,
our creator.
Further, pray tell me .. what does feeding a poor have to do with religion.
Shame on those rice missionaries who convert the poor by feeding them. This is
the worst type of exploitation. Destroying their traditional religion.
If christianity is so great .. why are American Indians in USA, South Africa
the poorest and most exploited. Why are the Filippins the poorest in south east
Asia. Why are so many Christian countries in Africa the poorest of the poor.
Why christian missionaries do not open schools and feed hte poor there?
Venkat
PS: Those who talk about principles rarely practice them.
vikash singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Try converting a Muslim, The next day your dead body
will be found.
Hindoos are good people that people trying to convert
are still alive. They should thank Jesus that they
deal with Hindus.
Anyway Jesus couldn't help himself, what the hell he
will help the poor christians...
Vikash S.
--- Sachi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As for my personal opinion any humans living in this
> world should be given
> right to practice any
> religion they want. It has been happening throught
> the world : Convertions
> What's wrong in Convertions, be it to Hinduism, to
> Chistianity , to Islam,
> to Buddhism.
> Anyone want to have debate on why conversions should
> not be allowed in a
> secular country like India?
>
> Bye,
> Sachi
>
>
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of WILLIAM KISKU
> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 1:04 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: RE: [ =>> Jharkhand <<= ] Conversion
> law violation is a
> criminal offence
>
>
>
> Well I am not a politician: I hate politicians.
>
> From my basic general knowledge the Indian
> constitution is based on British constitution, which
> is a western/christian based constitution, therefore
> contrarary to Hindutvas constitution.
>
> As far as my understanding goes, it is NOT
> illegal/criminal to convert christians back to
> Hindutva, but criminal to convert adivasis/tribals/
> into Christianity.
>
> Advocate Ashutoshjee... Can you throw some light on
> this and educate the forum on the right of an
> individual to practice a religion based on the human
> right issue?
>
> William Kisku
>
> --- Gladson Dungdung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:nfindia%40rediffmail.com> > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > It's not the matter of Gladson or Venki. The real
> > matter is the state is becoming the violator human
> > rights in the name of freedom of religion and so
> on.
> > How can the State dictate which religion I should
> > follow, profess or decline?
> >
> > Father of the Nationa, Mahatma Gandhi had very
> clear
> > idies about it. He said that I'm a sanatan Hindu
> and
> > it's my personal matter therefore the state should
> > not dictate my religion. We have the right to
> > freedom of religion as the fundamental rights
> > guaranted by the Constitution of India under
> Article
> > 25 and the state is duty bound to ensure these
> > rights. If the state decides about whom I should
> > believe, what I should wear and so on then where
> my
> > freedom is?
> >
> > When a tribal or dalit becomes Christian, Muslim
> or
> > Budhist peole of the so-called main streem of the
> > society lose their sleep but why people do not
> raise
> > any question when a Sharma, Verma, Mishra and list
> > goes on accept/change their religion.
> >
> > Another thing is when a tribal becomes Christian,
> > Muslim or Budhist so-called people call it
> > "conversion" but when the same fellow becomes
> > 'Hundu' then they call it 'Ghar Vapsi'. what a
> > wonderful defination of conversion we have.
> >
> > This is nothing than the power politics. The major
> > reason is that the Tribals and Dalits are
> > challenging the statu quo as a result the Brahmins
> > have already lost their control in the politics
> and
> > now they are also going to lose their social
> > control, which they are not able to digest
> therefore
> > they blam in many ways to stop the social change
> > process. But nothing is going to work we will
> bring
> > about change in the society at any cost. I know
> that
> > many people feel uncomfortable in these issues
> > therefore it must be stopped but sometimes I
> > surprise that inspite of many request why do peole
> > put these matterials in the group. I don't have
> any
> > problem if people want to discuss let's discuss
> it,
> > otherwise I would requet to the Moderater please
> > don't pass any matter like this, which is
> > meaningless to discuss in the forum.
> >
> > rgds
> > Gladson
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 BARBARA ali wrote :
> > >Hi,
> > >
> > >Its as simple as this, each one mind your own
> > business and let Venki and Gladson go hand in hand
> > and stand where ever they have to if they want to
> do
> > what ever they wish with their own lives.
> > >
> > >Bye
> > >
> > >BARBARA ALI
> > >SHARJAH
> > >UAE
> > >PO BOX 38485
> > >Mobile No: 0097150-6914668
> > >URL:
> >
>
Http://angloindianheritagecentre.googlepages.com/anglo-indianbiographies
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:Jharkhand%40yahoogroups.co.inFrom> :
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:prabirkc%40yahoo.comDate> : Sat, 26 Apr
> 2008 08:01:51
> > -0700Subject: Re: [ =>> Jharkhand <<= ] Conversion
> > law violation is a criminal offence
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Hope somebody prevents the Dalai Lama, Rajneesh
> and
> > Mahesh Yogi's followers from entering Gujarat!
> > >Now what will we do if Venki converts Gladson to
> > Jainism? Will they arrest Gladson or Venki?
> > >And
> > >Prabir--- On Sat, 4/26/08, ven
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:ahvenkitesh%40gmail.com> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >I believe such a law such be enacted in Jharkhand
> > as soon as possible since the state is plagued by
> > unethical conversions of the poor.Conversion law
> > violation is a criminal offencehttp://timesofindia
> > .indiatimes. com/Ahmedabad/ Conversion_
> > law_violation_ is_a_criminal_ offence/articles
> > how/2984048. cms26 Apr 2008, 0332 hrs IST,Rajiv
> > Shah,TNNGANDHINAGAR: From now on, anyone wishing
> to
> > convert will have to tell the government why they
> > were doing it and for how long they had been
> > following the religion which they were renouncing,
> > failing which, they will be declared offenders and
> > prosecuted under criminal laws. Forced conversion
> > could land those responsible a three-year jail
> term.
> > This clause is contained in the rules of the
> > anti-conversion law which came into effect on
> April
> > 1. The new law is called Gujarat Freedom of
> Religion
> > Act, 2003, and took five years to be implemented
> > because of the failure of the state government to
> > come up with rules on the kind of information to
> be
> > provided when applying for permission to convert
> to
> > any religion. The Bill confirms that Jainism and
> > Buddhism are not sub-sects of Hinduism. The rules
> > have been published in the Gujarat government
> > gazette. The rules make it obligatory for a priest
> > seeking to convert someone from one religion to
> > another to take prior permission of the district
> > magistrate in order to avoid police action.
> > >.
>
=== message truncated ===
P V Isaac,
Home:9874 1819 Mob 0415 144 981.
" What you resist, will persist"
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answer your questions
P V Isaac,
Home:9874 1819 Mob 0415 144 981.
" What you resist, will persist"
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