I am a little wary of joining in this complex debate...but just wanted to add a small thing in and that is that Islam actually does teach respecting humanity and human rights...however I will not disagree that in many ways this is not played out in practice. I have not lived in a Muslim country but I have experienced the stares of Americans from having my hair covered and the disbelief that someone would choose this path when superficial media knowledge prevails and guides the dominant discourse.
Love Nikki > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 3:08 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Islam versus the West njc > > > Azeem, why is it offensively ignorant to say that Islam as practised > by the overwhelming majority of countries in which it's the ruling > ideology doesn't respect human rights? > > No, I've never lived in a Moslem country, but yes, I've visited Arab > countries many times. And I am not way off track. I agree that the > picture is complex, more so than can be conveyed in a discussion > list. But it's important not to use complexity as an excuse not to > condemn. The reasons behind paedophilia are complex, but that > doesn't mean it's okay to rape children. > > I take your point about the English tourist getting lost in Pakistan > and being treated well. I think it could happen in Britain with a > lost tourist from Pakistan, and I'm thinking particularly of > Scotland. Maybe not so likely, I concede that. > > How has the USA participated in the genocide of its native peoples > within recent living memory? What are you thinking of exactly? > > I agree about Britain. Almost everything that's happening now in the > Middle East is because of British foreign policy and it's carving up > of land, which is why so many of the borders are straight lines. > There will have to be a realignment before there's peace in the > Middle East and it's going to take a very long time. This stand-off > between Bush and Saddam is almost a side issue in the big picture of > the Arab world finding its post-colonial feet. > > But I think "we" in the West are right about many things, and > shouldn't be ashamed to say so. We live in vibrant cultures, we > have access to wonderful art and literature, education, a lot of > freedom, good medical care (however much we moan about it, a lot > better than most of the world). We respect other people's rights, we > allow immigrants into our countries and do our best (not always > successfully) to welcome them and we respect their rights to practise > their own religions and cultural values after they come to live with > us. This doesn't ever happen in the Arab world, I can promise you. > Go live there and you do as they say, and stuff your own cultural > values. > > The first time I was in Syria, I met this woman through work, and we > became great friends in the three weeks I was there. She was in her > 30s, modern, clever, educated. At the end of my stay, I gave her my > address in London and invited her to come and visit me, and to stay > as long as she wanted. She burst into tears. She explained how much > she would love to do that, but she wasn't allowed because she was a > woman. She would need her father's written permission before she > could leave the country and he would never give it. Even with > written permission, she would have to find a male relative to > accompany her. Her only hope for freedom, she said, is if she's > lucky enough to marry an Arab man who has been educated in the West > and who has respect for women. But such men are hard to find, and > they tend to prefer women who have also been educated in the West. > So she saw her future as very bleak, and she doesn't believe she will > ever see London. > > That was in Syria, which is liberal compared with some Islamic > countries, and where women are not expected to wear the veil and are > allowed to work and go to college. > > This is disgraceful, and we should not support it. Sometimes > complexity can be reduced to very simple moral issues, Azeem. > > Sarah > > > > > At 1:20 PM -0500 12/23/2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >In a message dated 23/12/2002 16:16:25 GMT Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > ><< But Islam as practised by the overwhelming majority of countries > >in which it's the ruling ideology does not respect human rights at > >all. >> > > > >This is offensively ignorant. Have you ever spent time or lived in > >a Muslim country? I have, and I can assure you that you are way off > >track. I've had many debates with my family in Pakistan around this > >subject, and the picture is much more complex than you seem to be > >seeing it. I am not a Muslim, and disagree violently with what is > >happening in some predominantly Muslim countries. I also disagree > >with what happens and has happened in some predominantly Christian > >countries. > > > >If, say, an English tourist gets lost travelling through Pakistan > >and knocks on someone's door, they will be taken in and given > >shelter and food, even if the household can barely afford to feed > >itself. Imagine a Pakistani man knocking on a door in a village in > >England, unable to speak a word of English. Maybe he will be shown > >that level of hospitality; more likely he will be told to "get the > >hell off my property". > > > >Australia and the USA have participated in the genocides of their > >native peoples; in the case of the former this was happening within > >recent living memory. Britain has colonised large swathes of the > >world, subjugated local people, stolen their land and their > >resources and swiped many cultural treasures. > > > >The thing that appals me about the West is the assumption that "we" > >are right and have the right to tell other countries what to do. > >Azeem in London
