Don't you just hate the real world? ;-)
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: A mailing list about Java Server Pages specification and reference
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Brian Burridge
Sent: 22 April 1999 13:54
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Why Model 2?
In theory I completely agree with you. But, as we all know, theory often
differs
from reality. When I first looked into JSP, recommended it for our company,
and
then brought it onboard after getting the approval, I was leaning toward the
model you have described. However, in my 5 years of web site development, I
have
never once been in a situation or an organization in which the HTML
designers
were different than the coders. I have always wanted that, but it just
hasn't
been practical. At present, we use nothing but scriplets. We do have a
database
been, with set and get methods, and we use session beans. We are also
developing
a few packages with some common methods, but in general, the processing that
happens in each individual page, is unique to that page and doesn't need to
be
used anywhere else. Therefore, when I want to modify the logic, it is far
easier
and faster (which is what it is all about in all the environments I've
worked
in), to simply load the one jsp page that contains both the markup and the
logic. I can make all the changes in one location, republish, and the server
does the rest (compiling, etc). We also try to build most of the business
rules
into the database, with triggers, etc.
Now, as I said before, I am not against the model you described, because I
completely understand the circumstances in which it could be used. I think
the
important thing for everyone to realize, is no model is superior. They are
both
offered because they both have their pros and cons, and you as a developer,
in
your situation, have to determine which is best for you. One of them may be
the
ideal theory, but if that theory results in slower work production yet no
increase in quality or flexibility, then it is a poor theory.
Brian N. Burridge
Web Specialist
Cox Target Media
http://www.burridge.net/jsp
Kevin Jones wrote:
> Scriptlets are the (today) Java code that appears between <% %> tags in a
> JSP page.
>
> IMO, in general these are a bad idea (notice the in general), but will
have
> a place. I have many problems with scriplets, most of which have been
echoed
> on this list, mixing presentation and business logic has always been a bad
> idea, but there are other issues as well, not least debugging the things!
> One of the things I've never liked about ASP is the heavy mix of script
and
> HTML - because of that it is very difficult to work out what the page is
> meant to look like, and conversely what the script is meant to achieve. By
> seperating these two aspects they can be developed, viewed and maintained
> seperately.
>
> The other thing is this - I bet that most (if not all?) the people who
> contribute to this list are Java developers first, or at least have a good
> grasp of Java. What that means is that we all understand the OO aspects of
> the language and could design and build Java applications, we understand
> that JSPs are compiled to servlets and wouldn't be afraid to look at the
> generated servlet to see what was going on (in fact I seem to spend my
life
> doing that to debug the JSP pages ;-) ). How true is that of people whose
> main occupation is to design and write HTML pages using either JSP or ASP
or
> just straight HTML?
>
> I teach Java programming, and used to do a Java language course where we
had
> students whose experience ranged from 10 years C++ (i.e. they didn't need
to
> be taught) through those who had some OO and/or C++ (ideal audience) down
to
> webmasters! The webmasters knew HTML and a script language - these people
> really struggled to learn Java. That (again IMO) is why it is vital to
keep
> the UI/Business Logic seperation, to protect the page designers from us.
>
> If you're a one or two man development team fine, go ahead and use
> scriptlets, but if your doing a large scale development or have somebody
> else design web-pages out of house (which many companies do) then mixing
> Java into an HTML page is a really bad idea. From a page designers point
of
> view it is much easier to learn a few new HTML like tags (USEBEAN etc.
> although thay aren't perfect) than to have to learn to write Java, and
learn
> how to manage and debug projects
>
> Just my 2c,
>
> Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A mailing list about Java Server Pages specification and reference
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Brad Neuberg
> Sent: 22 April 1999 03:39
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Why Model 2?
>
> What is a scriptlet?
>
>
===========================================================================
> To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the
body
> of the message "signoff JSP-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help".
>
>
===========================================================================
> To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the
body
> of the message "signoff JSP-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help".
===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body
of the message "signoff JSP-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help".
===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body
of the message "signoff JSP-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message "help".
