You are so right about this. I use Leo a lot, and as you say, I have
worked out ways to work with it. But I don't know about many basic things
because I haven't encountered the right bit of documentation. For example,
I didn't know that <INSERT> would insert a new node.
Because Leo can do so many things, and has so many commands, it's hard to
know how to write useful HELP material. After one has used it for some
time, it gets, as you say, hard to realize that a new user may not be able
to find the things you do all the time. On top of that, documentation is
spread around through various places.
As for Leo unpredictably opening one file or another on startup, I have
never experienced that. When I first started using Leo, it automatically
created and opened workbook.leo, and since I leave it opened, it's always
there. I first used it back in version 4.something and we're now at 6.2.x,
but I think it still works that way. So something quirky is happened for
you. Maybe someone else knows about it.
If you haven't tried yet, configuration can be awful unless you find the
exact string to add or change, and its location, because someone else
published it somewhere.
Despite these problems, I have found Leo so good to work with that I have
been willing to live with its HELP and configuration weaknesses.
Personally, I think that we - the Leo community - should take on a project
to produce at least a good introductory HELP system. There are several
documents, but as you have clearly told us, they aren't up to the job. The
trouble is, the work would take a lot of time and effort, and isn't very
interesting to most people. Of those who pass those filters, few of them
are able to re-create what it's like to be a beginner, and to know how to
organize the material to be highly helpful.
These difficulties aren't unique to Leo, of course. You should hear my
Significant Other complain about the LibreOffice word processor, since it
sometimes works differently from Word. But Leo's outline machinery works
so differently from what most people are used to that it may be harder for
them to get started. If you can get past this newbie period, you may find
(like I did) that Leo is worth it.
Here are the commands that I use for basic Leo operations on the outline -
I learned them from the Outline Menu:
- For inserting a node, I always use <CNTRL-I>. This always puts the new
node just under whichever node is already selected in the outline.
- For moving a node, I always use <CTRL-u> for UP, CNTRL-d for DOWN.
- For moving a node sideways, I use <CNTRL-r> for RIGHT (i.e., indenting
it: making it a child node of the one above), <CNTRL-l> for LEFT.
- For copying a node, I would use <CNTRL-SHIFT-C> but it doesn't work on my
keyboard (a new wireless Logitech) so I resort to using the Outline menu.
- For pasting a copied node, I use <CNTRL-SHIFT-V>, which my keyboard is
willing to emit.
On Tuesday, August 4, 2020 at 5:44:09 AM UTC-4, Vedran Čačić wrote:
>
> I really want to use Leo. I think the premise is great. However, I think
> the interface has so many pitfalls for beginners, and since you all
> probably use Leo for a long time, you don't really see it. I've been
> struggling with it for a week already.
>
> First, when I start Leo, sometimes it opens the default document (with the
> help), sometimes it opens the last opened one, and sometimes it just opens
> new document. I still haven't been able to see when each of these happens.
>
> Second, inserting nodes. Yes, I know I can press Insert. But whether it
> will insert new root node or a child of already selected one (or even a
> child of last node) seems simply random. And of course, according to
> Murphy, it's always the action that I don't want. :-/
>
> Third, moving nodes. I still don't understand what Promote and Demote
> does, not to mention that on my keyboard Ctrl+{ and Ctrl+} doesn't work (it
> probably works only on US keyboard). I really think there should be an easy
> way to move the nodes around, after all it seems like a main feature of Leo.
>
> Fourth, help is abysmal. None of the above things I could find in help.
> Example: I press F1, and get (it's not even copy-pasteable?!):
>
> Alt-0 hide this message (ok, that's nice to know)
> To learn about <Alt-X> commands... sorry, I don't know whether I want to
> learn about <Alt-X> commands. I don't know what <Alt-X> command _is_,
> anyway. I just want to move a node under another one.
> To get a list of help topics... great, I think. I type <Alt-X>help-<tab>,
> and get a list with only three items, none of which is relevant. Only afer
> a long time, I notice the scrollbar - the contrast is almost nonexistent.
> :-/ And yes, I find help-for-drag-and-drop, click on it, and... nothing
> happens. Oh, I have to type it again? Ok, but why? Couldn't this work the
> same way as the outline?
>
> And after all that, I get (again, un-copy-pasteable) "you may drag nodes".
> Yes, I know I can drag them, that's the first thing I tried. The problem
> is, it almost never works. Sometimes I get a child of the node I dragged
> to, sometimes I get its sibling. And sometimes it doesn't work at all. The
> nodes just stay where they are.
>
> Other help options are the same as "Alt-X" above... they pressupose a lot
> of knowledge about Leo I don't already have. For example, how to find about
> inserting nodes? It's not mentioned anywhere that I see. I got lucky with
> Insert key, but as can be seen above, I'm still not sure what exactly it
> does.
>
> If you really want Leo to be used by new users, you have to work on this.
> Maybe just help needs to be reworked, now it seems like a reference. Maybe
> my mindset is wrong... I have never really used Emacs, and the interface is
> obviously based on it. :-/
>
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