Not whining Gordon, but let's see - the kernel upgrades aren't written by SuSE - they're written by open source contributors and are offered free to all who want them, IBM provides the kernel patches to make the kernel run on S/390 architecture and the OCO driver updates. I expect that 85% (probably more) of the Linux packages require no modifications to run on Linux/390.
Maybe it's time for IBM to step in and produce it's own Linux/390 distribution. They've already made an investment in the operating system, recognize it's potential, and could easily cover the costs of producing a package in hardare sales and service (not to mention voluntary service contracts). The alternative is (to my thinking) not use any vendors "package", take the kernel source and IBM's patches and manually build and maintain your own system. Michael Coffin, VM Systems Programmer Internal Revenue Service - Room 6030 1111 Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20224 Voice: (202) 927-4188 FAX: (202) 622-6726 [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -----Original Message----- From: Wolfe, Gordon W [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Current Linux/390 Distributions Aren't Cheap The Linux pricing issue works both ways, though. A recent post said that there were about 700 Linux/390 installations world-wide (300 production and 400 in test). If SuSE sells one copy at $100 to each installation, that's only $70,000 to cover research, creation of the kernel, packaging of all the program products that go with it, testing and quality assurance to make sure it all works together, development of YAST and other products, packaging on CD, manuals, crating, storage and shipping. These days $70,000 won't even pay for one employee with benefits, and you're not going to do all that with one employee and still get out a new release every year in 20 diferent languages. Remember, this is a complete operating system and all associated program products. How much are you paying for VM and all its software, including maintenance? At $11,500 an engine, SuSE Linux can be considered a bargain in comparison! We're all just spoiled because we've been able to get it free from Marist or SuSE for two years. When was the last time the Marist distribution was updated? How many program products come with it? You can still get Red Hat for free, but it's a partial distribution with few or no program products. And Red Hat has stated that if it can't make money it will get back out of the business. We don't have the manpower here at Boeing to compile our own kernels, research and install/compile program products and try to figure them out without any manuals. We need a prepackaged solution. (There's only 8 of us to handle all of VM/CMS and Linux/390 and all program products, performance and tech support for 6 LPARS and 45,000 users. Five years ago we had 19 people doing this, half the load and no Linux.) Other distributions are incomplete. TurboLinux, you have to compile your own kernel and obtain and install your own program products. Same with most of the other distributions like Cayman and Debian. Red Hat has the whole OCO problem with OSA, no support for LVM, and the Beta Oracle will only run on SuSE at this time. (We do a LOT of Oracle on VM and Oracle isn't enhancing the product for VM/CMS.) If SuSE can't make money on the product, there is no reason for them to stay in the business at all. If you've been following the financial news, you may have noticed that SuSE, GMBH has been having some problems (like the rest of the world), alleviated only by a large infusion of cash from IBM. I agree that the current situation is inconvenient, but SuSE has to have SOME way of supporting their investment in time in the product. How would you all suggest they make money on the deal, or should they just do it out of the goodness of their heart? I haven't heard anyone actually suggest a new business model for SuSE based on cheap prices, just whining about the new price. I predict that other commercial distributions will follow in SuSE's footsteps and raise prices on S/390 distributions to the same general level. Either that or go out of business. The non-commercial distributions will continue to plod along, having you do most of the work and putting out new releases whenever they can get around to it. Take your choice: an "overpriced" product, a product where you do all of the work (and whose vendor may not be around a year from now), or no product at all. "Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back." -Piet Hein, Journal of Irreproducible Results March, 1971 Gordon W. Wolfe, Ph.D VM Technical SErvices, The Boeing Company, (425)865-5940 > ---------- > From: Coffin Michael C > Reply To: Linux on 390 Port > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:50 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Current Linux/390 Distributions Aren't Cheap > > Hi Mike (Ross)... again, > > I guess I should have read all 300 of my unread Linux/390 posts before > sending this. You absolutely answered my question - it's always been my > understanding that under the GPL for Linux the vendor can charge a fee for > distribution related stuff. You've already covered this in great detail. > > So, given that it is permissable to copy and distribute the media which > (someone) has already paid for, does anybody have a set of SuSE 7.2 or > RedHat 7.2 (GA, I'm currently looking at RC2)CD's which I can FTP or get a > copy of? > > Let me add one other thought. Does the predatory pricing of the most > recent > Linux for S/390 distributions remind anyone but me of the story The Goose > That Laid The Golden Egg? Linux for S/390 is a good thing all around, it > will sell hardware, it will sell service contracts to those who WANT THEM, > it will propogate Linux to the fastest and most reliable hardware yet > known. > But FORCING service contracts upon (potential) customers who are still now > evaluating whether or not Linux/390 fits into their organization will just > simply KILL such initiatives. Furthermore, a Linux distribution is a > Linux > distribution is a Linux distribution - so why does it seem reasonable that > I > can pick up a SuSE for Intel CD for $10 and all I get is what I wanted, > the > distribution on CD - but for S/390 I'm required to pay $14,990 more for > service I neither asked for nor desire (at this time)?!? That's not to > say > that I might not WANT to contract for service at a later date, but that > time > may never come... because THIS flavor of Linux (unlike ALL others) > suddenly > cannot be obtained freely. > > These are my own thoughts and positions and not necessarily those of my > clients! > > Michael Coffin, VM Systems Programmer > Internal Revenue Service - Room 6030 > 1111 Constitution Avenue, N.W. > Washington, D.C. 20224 > > Voice: (202) 927-4188 FAX: (202) 622-6726 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Coffin Michael C [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:02 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Current Linux/390 Distributions Aren't Cheap > > > Hi Mike, > > I heard that the SuSE 7.2 distribution (which includes a "mandatory > service > contract"!) is around $15,000! I don't mind paying $100 for CD's (even > though it's WAY too much), but $15,000 for the $10 CD's and $14,990 for > service I don't want - that's a pretty hard sell to management who has > been > told that Linux is "free for the masses". > > I was under the impression that under the terms of the Linux distribution > license, vendors (RedHat, SuSE, etc.) are allowed to package and sell > Linux > the Linux kernel but that the fee charged for the distribution was > supposed > to be to cover their expense on the packaging and distribution (or > something > like that). Can someone elaborate on this? I could be totally wrong > about > this, but when I first got involved with Linux this was my understanding. > > I realize that all of the sources can be downloaded from the vendor sites > and manually applied, it's just a lot faster and easier to use the > vendor's > packaged distribution (but not for $15,000). > > Please feel free to correct me anywhere I may be wrong here (I HOPE that I > am VERY wrong). :) > > Michael Coffin, VM Systems Programmer > Internal Revenue Service - Room 6030 > 1111 Constitution Avenue, N.W. > Washington, D.C. 20224 > > Voice: (202) 927-4188 FAX: (202) 622-6726 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Ross [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 11:34 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: reasons why management don't want linux > > > > > > less software costs (one copy per engine vs one copy each for each > >boxes) then > > > > most other platforms. > > > > > > software costs lower. How many copies of Red Hat PC boxed set can > >you buy > > > for a VM license ;) > > > >How much is a SuSe Linux/390 distribution these days? A German user > >told me yesterday that the cost is very far from insignificant. > > It can be downloaded at no charge. > > For a proper boxed distribution with CDs, Suse guy at Linuxworld last year > quoted me IIRC $100. It wasn't very far from that figure at any rate. No > idea what official Suse support costs are. > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > >
