Linux-Advocacy Digest #399, Volume #25 Sat, 26 Feb 00 03:13:07 EST
Contents:
Re: Microsoft migrates Hotmail to W2K (Perry Pip)
Re: Windows 2000: flat sales (Iain Robertson)
Re: Giving up on NT ("Todd")
Re: How does the free-OS business model work? (witra)
Re: Windows 2000: flat sales (Iain Robertson)
Re: Bundling inherently unfair to consumers - R people in here stupid?? ("Erik
Funkenbusch")
Re: Windows 2000: flat sales ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Microsoft migrates Hotmail to W2K ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Microsoft migrates Hotmail to W2K ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Microsoft, MS-Spammers, Gay Bashing, Right-wing Politics, Usenet Censorship
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Windows on Linux? (Iain Robertson)
government incentives for free software (Fergus Henderson)
Re: what exactly is Linux advocacy? (Iain Robertson)
Re: Microsoft, MS-Spammers, Gay Bashing, Right-wing Politics, Usenet Censorship
(Damien)
Re: How does the free-OS business model work? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: How does the free-OS business model work? (Donovan Rebbechi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Subject: Re: Microsoft migrates Hotmail to W2K
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 06:02:00 GMT
On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:09:36 -0800, Jim Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:56:59 -0500,
> Drestin Black, in the persona of <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> brought forth the following words...:
>
>>
>>"Wolfgang Weisselberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
>>message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:07:29 -0500,
>>> Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Oh really? Think again. MOST banks use windows in their branches almost
>>> > exclusively. Do you consider Prudential a small "banking" operation?
>>60,000
>>> > copies of W2K pro going on-line during these first 6 months (10,000
>>> > laptops). I think it's time you visit your banks again.
>>>
>>> My bank (Deutsche Bank) changed from terminals to NT a couple of
>>> years ago. I had a few lines with their people, saying that these
>>> machines (just workplace ones were NTs, not the ATMs) crashed
>>> often. I got an enthusiastic "yes, you should have told that to
>>> our management before they changed". Guess the terminals were
>>> more stable.
>>>
>
><Snip a bunch of German banks, few of which use NT or IIS>
>
>>>
>>> as they say, the ball is on your side now ...
>>
>>German banks - not US. I will grant you that there are more German banks
>>using some form of unix for their external website than IIS. I can't address
>>the topic of German OS choices very well. I was speaking of US banks. Also,
>>consider the important transactions happen on SSL - take a look at your
>>netcraft survey regarding SSL servers - overwhelming majority are IIS and
>>growing.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>Bank Of America, www.bofa.com SSL on Netscape-Enterprise
>Couldn't find an SSL server on www.wellsfargo.com, but the http
>was running on Netscape-Enterprise.
>www.chase.com is also running SSL on Netscape-Enterprise
>www.bankamerica.com um, Netscape-Enterprise for SSL
Not to mention the very bank he mentioned:
www.prudential.com: SSL on Netscape-Enterprise on AIX.
And his business, drestinb.ic.net is running Apache on FreeBSD.
How ironic.
------------------------------
From: Iain Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 2000: flat sales
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:09:13 +1000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Why should they? There are no fundamental differences between NT and
> Windows 2000 that are anything like the switch from Win16 to Win32. They
> were completely different memory models, completely different API's, and
> completely different feature sets. Windows 2000 is a superset of Windows NT
> 4. The only things that need replacing are certain classes of device
> drivers.
However I will still bet that the average (l)user will replace all of their
current programs, whether it be M$Office9[57], Publisher or any other M$ or
other app, with the most recent (i.e. "designed for Windows2000").
Bad move or no, this is what will happen. (l)Users will be (l)users - and when
M$/some-micro$oft-buddy says "buy something" generally they will.
------------------------------
From: "Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Giving up on NT
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:29:12 +0800
"Jim Frost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Todd wrote:
> > So, 20 million polygons per second.
> >
> > Now, take this into account: The *slowest* new Voodoo product (the
voodoo4)
> > will do 333 *mega* pixels per second. That's the slowest. I'm not even
> > going to mention their other products capable of performing *over* the
> > *giga* pixel limit.
>
> This is an apples/oranges comparison. You're comparing polygons to the
fill
> rate.
Hehe... I was wondering if someone was going to notice :)
> I haven't been able to find polygon rates for the Voodoo4, perhaps
> because it would not compare well to the GeForce (which has a 15M polygon
> rate, still well below that of the PS2 although it's doing that rate with
T&L
> functionality too).
Actually, the GeForce fill rate is about 540 million pixels per second...
but that's with all of its 'special features'... whereas the PS2 goes from
75M polygons to just under 20M while using 'its' special features.
Note also that polygons on TV resolution will probably have far fewer
pixels per polygon than somebody running in 1024x768, for example.
If the GeForce only had to render with a 240x160 pixel resolution, it would
probably blow away a PS2... which is while fill rates are generally measured
in millions of pixels / sec... since the average size of polygons would
change when the resolution changes. For a TV, it is fixed at a very, very
low resolution compared to even the lower resolution for most PC games...
640x480 (which, probably almost noone uses anymore) - I generally play in
1024x768...
-Todd
>
> jim
------------------------------
From: witra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: How does the free-OS business model work?
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:31:55 +0800
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
>snip...
>The existence of *free* software is a public good. But I don't see why
>developers should be forced to give up the fruits of their labor. Noone
>else is expected to freely give away their productive labor on the grounds
>that it's a "public good".
>snip...
Perhaps "share" might be a better word than "give away"?
------------------------------
From: Iain Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 2000: flat sales
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:20:40 +1000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> No, I'm not. I don't use BSD day to day anymore and don't give a shit. I use
> W2K because it does every single thing I could expect my computer to do.
OK.... so I take it speed/performance are not of issue to you then...
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Bundling inherently unfair to consumers - R people in here stupid??
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 00:54:41 -0600
JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >Companies that do not build what their customers want are not companies
for
> >very long.
> >
> >Microsoft wins because they build what the majority of their customers
want,
> >not what their competition finds useful.
>
> No, they build what people think they "need". They're more
> comparable to a crack pusher than a reputable corporation.
> They muscle competition and actively work to make it more
> difficult for users to choose freely whether or not to use
> MS product or not.
What is the difference between what people want, and what they think they
"need"? Same thing, is it not? Then how do you say "No"?
> >How many of MS's competitors have bit the dust because of lakc of
customers?
> >Any engineer that doesn't listen to customer feedback isn't an engineer
> >worth much.
>
> That has nothing to do with quality: The Quintisential
> Lemming Circular Argument...
Again, it matters little if you build a quality product if nobody buys it.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 2000: flat sales
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 00:58:34 -0600
Iain Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Why should they? There are no fundamental differences between NT and
> > Windows 2000 that are anything like the switch from Win16 to Win32.
They
> > were completely different memory models, completely different API's, and
> > completely different feature sets. Windows 2000 is a superset of
Windows NT
> > 4. The only things that need replacing are certain classes of device
> > drivers.
>
> However I will still bet that the average (l)user will replace all of
their
> current programs, whether it be M$Office9[57], Publisher or any other M$
or
> other app, with the most recent (i.e. "designed for Windows2000").
>
> Bad move or no, this is what will happen. (l)Users will be (l)users - and
when
> M$/some-micro$oft-buddy says "buy something" generally they will.
The claim was that you would *HAVE* to replace all your apps, not that you
could or would.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft migrates Hotmail to W2K
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 01:01:46 -0600
Wolfgang Weisselberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > What you fail to realize is that Hotmail doesn't run on stock Unix
either.
> > It's highly customized Unix. No existing OS could run Hotmail out of
the
> > box.
>
> Well, I presume since the other OSses don't have these wonderful
> wizards and stuff which do *all* the work wrong, there must be a
> few competent people setting up the machines. Like, configurating
> them.
I said customized, not configured.
> If you mean something different when you say "highly customized",
> please explain in what areas these customisations were done, and
> how you got knowledge of it in the first place.
Yes, Hotmail runs on a completely custom file system and completely custom
TCP/IP stack. These are not the stock componenets that ship with Solaris.
> But then MS is rumored to have the sourcecode of both NT and W2K
> ... and I hear tell they got programmers as well.
And your point is?
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft migrates Hotmail to W2K
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 01:10:58 -0600
Wolfgang Weisselberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> So, how shall I interpret the fact
that "Long term, Hotmail is
> committed to moving to Windows NT Server." ... since at least
> "Monday, March 01, 1999"? And "However, *wholesale* migration
> to Windows NT Server has not yet been attempted." (emphasis
> mine)?
> (http://www.microsoft.com/NTServer/WEB/NEWS/MSNW/HOTMAIL.ASP)
>
> I can only read that they tried a *partial* migration, which
> probably went not too great. For *at least* almost a year were
> unable or unwilling to convert "the fastest growing e-mail
> service" completely to NT. If MS is unable to do that within a
> year or two (and they are rumored to have the source code,
> remember?) then how are other people to do such a thing?
MS has done a partial Migration. Hotmail uses NT in several areas.
> Further, MS knew before anyone that they were going to have w2k.
> They did not alter that particular page yet.
Do you know how many pages are on MS's web server?
> Also, M$ has a history of double talk, and plain right out lying.
> This has been shown once more in the recent process. So why
> should I believe them? In fact, other sources claim they tried:
> http://www.kirch.net/unix-nt/hotmail.html
> http://www.slctech.org/~firth/me/hotmail.html
> http://www.mail-archive.com/web-consultants@just4u.com/msg08211.html
> (all of which have basically the same message)
None of which have any credible source. Why would "sources close to
hotmail" use terminology like "They" when refering to Hotmail? If they
were close enough to Hotmail to know about these things, it would have been
"We", not "They".
> Pointing out that if neither NT nor W2K have what it takes to
> run Hotmail, then how comes that every business and their dog
> (with no experience) should switch to it? Especially when MS
> says that these kinds of applications are OK with NT (see their
> URL up there again). Now, what *is* the truth?
Few businesses have the demands of Hotmail. MS runs their entire
www.microsoft.com domain and msn.com domain on NT, and it's one of the
busiest sites on the net.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Microsoft, MS-Spammers, Gay Bashing, Right-wing Politics, Usenet
Censorship
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 07:05:48 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Why don't you tell them about the URL where you talk about how to use
> "double condoms" or Female condoms during anal intercourse to avoid
> the transmission of aids?
>
> Need a reference?
So? Why do you give a shit what homosexuals do? I'm not a homo, but
they've got sexual desires just like us.. You anti-homo guys are
probably the ones who run out and buy lesbian porno flicks.
> Whether you practice a gay lifestyle or not is not the issue here, you
> support, by your own thousands of messages, the lifestyle. And you
> support "exposing" first grade students to this sickening, deviant
> lifestyle, by your own signature in the original post.
You're damn right I support it -- I enjoy watching lesbian porno
flicks.
> IMHO of course, and I am pretty much middle of the road you see, you
> on the other hand ,are a sick perverted individual if you condone
> sticking your d*** up another man's a$$.
So what? I enjoy sticking my d** up* another girl's a$$ too. How is
this different? Personally, I like to fuck girls up the ass, but I like
to use a condom first. By fucking girls up the ass from behind, it
leaves my right hand free to biddle the girl's pussy in front. Then, I
can use my left hand to massage her left tit. (OK, her right tit,
because I'm double-jointed. :P)
> It's deviant. It's un-natural and it is a form of sick behavior.
> Ever see a man's d*** stuck in a cast iron free weight?
No, but I've seen a porno flick where this one guy put a whole bunch of
donuts on his dick. He also put some pineapple rings on there, and the
girls where eating the donuts and pineapple rings right off his dick.
(I'll have to try that.)
> how about a fluorescent lightbulb that imploded in another "mans"
> rectum? Not a pretty sight.
> Vacuum cleaners? I've seen them all.
> Dil** that seem to get "lost" in there.
> It get's boring after a couple of weeks.
Uh huh, and straight people also do this kind of thing... your point
being? ...that you're a virgin, so you have to pick on the homos,
because they've "been there"? Ever consider that not all homosexuals do
this sort of thing? So there. I'm a heterosexual, and I'm just as
deviant.
> Sorry Bilk. The lifestyle you condone is a sickening, pile of steaming
> excrement and is backed up by facts on how many sexual partners a gay
> man has in a typical year. The num ber is in the hundreds.
>
> No wonder they are dying of aids..Good riddence.....and no loss.
I'll say the same thing when Microsoft goes bankrupt.
--
Donn
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Iain Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows on Linux?
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:20:59 +1000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Thanks, for the info. That clears up a lot of misunderstanding on my
> part. Once one other thing though, I have read a little about WINE, and
> get the feeling that it is a pretty good program. But, does it only run
> one app at a time, or can you actualy boot windows?
WINE is good for a few things.
Yes, more than one app at a time can be started, but at the moment I haven't found
many apps that work "out-of-the-box". This is improving with each release of WINE.
No, you can't boot Windows itself using WINE, it's actually designed to
*replace* windows, not *run* it. However, certain .DLL's etc can be used within
WINE to augment it.
Good to see yet another Linux Newbie (tm) - the world needs more of `em <g>.
Iain
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Fergus Henderson)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: government incentives for free software
Date: 26 Feb 2000 07:31:39 GMT
"Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy Kaz Kylheku <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>: I don't advocate the dismantling of copyright laws. I'm rather in favor of
>: measures to make it illegal to distribute software without source code,
>: regardless of the licensing arrangements.
>
>I'm hoping that the market will accomplish the same result without
>need for oppressive legislation, by favoring software vendors who
>release software (even proprietary software) with source.
That would be nice.
I too do not favour abolishing copyright laws. Some relatively
minor tinkering, such as reducing the duration, could be good.
But more importantly, I think it would be good for governments
to use tax rates and government spending policies as incentives
to encourage open-source software.
For example, the tax rates on open-source software could be set lower
than the tax rates for proprietry software. That makes sense, since
companies producing open-source software are already giving something
back to the community; why should they have to pay the same tax rates
as companies that don't give anything back?
Similarly, the rules for evaluating tenders for government contracts
should be set so that open-source solutions are favoured over proprietry
ones. This would take into account the benefit to the public of
open-source solutions. In addition, using open-source solutions leads
to a much more competitive market for later improvements and upgrades,
which will lead to lower costs in the long term. If the choice is
between say a proprietry solution costing $1M up-front, and an
open-source solution costing $1.2M up-front, the open-source solution
may well end up cheaper in the long term due to the more competetive
market for later enhancements.
--
Fergus Henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | "I have always known that the pursuit
WWW: <http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~fjh> | of excellence is a lethal habit"
PGP: finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- the last words of T. S. Garp.
------------------------------
From: Iain Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: what exactly is Linux advocacy?
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:30:09 +1000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> .. and damned little real advocacy from either camp. Read
> C.O.L.A like you would read the Sunday funnies. It's strictly
> entertainment, with an occasional smidgeon of truth trying to
> poke through the comedy.
Let's face it: all OS' suck to some extent. In each person's opinion, some
might suck more than others... hence, my opinion that NT/95/98/any-M$ -tripe
sucks. It's an OPINION - not meant to be taken in any other way.
Basically I'm me-tooing...
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Damien)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Microsoft, MS-Spammers, Gay Bashing, Right-wing Politics, Usenet
Censorship
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 26 Feb 2000 07:54:31 GMT
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 00:53:36 GMT, in alt.destroy.microsoft,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| I don't hate gay people, I hate their deviant behavior.
| I live in NYC Mark and have seen my share of deviants, on a daily basis.
| Green haired men dressed as women. Women dressed as biker men and so forth.
| Have YOU ever seen the Greenwhich Village Halloween parade?
| A spectectle of deviant behavior second to none.
Me too. I mean, for God's sake! Everywhere I go, I see these people,
who have actually taken sharp objects and stuck them into their body!
I mean, they actually stick a hole into part of their body! It'll be
perfectly normal flap of skin, like that flap at the bottom of your
ears, and they will take the sharpest thing they can find and stick it
in one side and out the other! I ask, doesn't that hurt? Of course,
it does, but "just for a second". And why do they do this you ask?
Why do they create holes where there was skin before? Why do they go
through all the pain and risk of infection that naturally occurs when
you put holes straight through your body? So they can hang trinkets,
and jewels and jewlery from it! How ridiculous is that? Stick a
sharp object in one part of your body and out another so that you can
decorate it with shiny things!? These people are deviants, evil and
perverted.
Obligatory tie-in to all the groups we are crossposting to:
These people are obviously the evil spawn of Microsoft, aka Satan
himself.
[Apologies for responding to this cross-posted off-topic troll, but I
couldn't help myself]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: How does the free-OS business model work?
Date: 26 Feb 2000 08:05:25 GMT
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:31:55 +0800, witra wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
>>snip...
>>The existence of *free* software is a public good. But I don't see why
>>developers should be forced to give up the fruits of their labor. Noone
>>else is expected to freely give away their productive labor on the grounds
>>that it's a "public good".
>>snip...
>
>Perhaps "share" might be a better word than "give away"?
Perhaps. Still , the notion that anyone is obliged to share anything has
no place under the assumptions of capitalism. Only if you're prepared to
forgo those assumptions and capitalism itself are you in a position to
suggest that sharing should be mandatory.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: How does the free-OS business model work?
Date: 26 Feb 2000 08:08:03 GMT
On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:59:36 -0800, Jeffrey B. Siegal wrote:
>Barry Margolin wrote:
>> While many end users don't personally try commercial software before they
>> buy it, they may do so indirectly. They often read reviews in magazines,
>> or learn about it by word of mouth.
>
>It is possible to envision that the cosource model (also known as the street
>performer protocol) could work this way. Invited reviewers to could given the
>opportunity to review the software, either as a work in progress, or upon
>completion. Based on these reviews, people could either sponsor the software
>or not.
Expecting the developers to rely on donations alone does not seem reasonable.
I think there is a case to be made for public funding of this sort of thing (
though again, I emphasise, not to the exclusion of other models ). I have
doubts that it would work if supported by private funding alone.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
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