Linux-Advocacy Digest #521, Volume #25 Mon, 6 Mar 00 03:13:07 EST
Contents:
Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking? (Nix)
Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking? (Nix)
Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking? (Nix)
Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking? (Nix)
Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking? (Nix)
Re: Giving up on NT (Joseph)
Re: What's GNU/Linux? (Alexander Viro)
Re: A little advocacy.. (Marada C. Shradrakaii)
Re: Giving up on NT (Marada C. Shradrakaii)
Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking? (Alexander Viro)
Re: prepare Income Tax under Linux? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Salary? (José Luis Domingo)
Re: A little advocacy.. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Nix <$}xinix{$@esperi.demon.co.uk>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking?
Date: 05 Mar 2000 23:17:19 +0000
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mario Klebsch) writes:
> Err, WinNT is UNIX,
WTF?
WinNT is POSIX-compliant if and only if you take the most restricted and
impoverished subset of POSIX you can find; it most definitely is not a
UNIX. Internally it is more like a sort of sick distorted warmed-over
VMS.
--
`> KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS
You must have some, but I don't see any evidence of it.'
--- Craig Hardie flames a luser recruitment consultant
advertising `Microsoft based solutions' on uk.comp.os.linux
------------------------------
From: Nix <$}xinix{$@esperi.demon.co.uk>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking?
Date: 05 Mar 2000 23:35:10 +0000
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mario Klebsch) writes:
> The ABI should be a core pice of the OS, since it is the basic
> requirement for binary distribution. This should not be tied to a
> compiler.
Er, the compiler generates code to an ABI; the ABI's requirements are
set by the requirements of the compiler.
It can't be tied to anything *other* than the compiler!
(FWIW the C++ ABI should be settling down fairly soon. One hopes a last
change for gcc-3.0 is all that will be required...)
--
`> KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS
You must have some, but I don't see any evidence of it.'
--- Craig Hardie flames a luser recruitment consultant
advertising `Microsoft based solutions' on uk.comp.os.linux
------------------------------
From: Nix <$}xinix{$@esperi.demon.co.uk>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking?
Date: 05 Mar 2000 23:37:47 +0000
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mario Klebsch) writes:
> So, please tell me, how can I recompile my applix office suite, the
> Adabas-D database or acroread? I tried my best, but I was not able to
> find the source code.
Serves you right for closed-source software, then.
(Well, you're crossposting this to comp.os.linux.development.system,
what kind of response do you *expect*? The only way of trolling more
effectively would be to add gnu.misc.discuss to the crosspost.
Furrfu.)
--
`> KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS
You must have some, but I don't see any evidence of it.'
--- Craig Hardie flames a luser recruitment consultant
advertising `Microsoft based solutions' on uk.comp.os.linux
------------------------------
From: Nix <$}xinix{$@esperi.demon.co.uk>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking?
Date: 05 Mar 2000 23:41:54 +0000
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mario Klebsch) writes:
> IMHO this should have changed years ago. Linux should change from
> being just a kernel to bein an entire operating system. Put the big
> players in the linux distribution market probably have no interest is
> this, because they would loose their position. :-(
Good god, not just a troll, a conspiracy theorist too.
--
`> KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS
You must have some, but I don't see any evidence of it.'
--- Craig Hardie flames a luser recruitment consultant
advertising `Microsoft based solutions' on uk.comp.os.linux
------------------------------
From: Nix <$}xinix{$@esperi.demon.co.uk>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking?
Date: 05 Mar 2000 23:58:30 +0000
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mario Klebsch) writes:
> I do not see the argument about C++. The only C++ compiler widely used
> on Linux systems is gcc, and it shlould be sufficient to get stable
> calling and name mangling conventions.
Oh, my god, you really don't get it, do you.
Issues:- name mangling (as you said)
- class layout
- RTTI slot location and layout
- virtual base class handling
- exception throwing, especially from shared libraries,
across C code; the C code may be compiled by non-gcc
compilers and the shared library loader may not be GNU
(gcc runs in proprietary vendor environments too, and
should not stop working there)
- class emission semantics (i.e. where to emit the vtables &c
for classes)
- intercalling with Java/C/ObjC (yes, this may require ABI
changes; although I doubt it I don't know much about this
area)
- and doubtless more stuff I've forgotten.
This is *not* a small problem, and your brushing it off shows how little
you really know about this area. I was wondering if you had some cause
to be so condescendingly arrogant; maybe you knew something the rest of
us did not. It unfortunately appears that this is not the case :(
> The remaining unstability of the ABI is the contents of the
> library.
The arbitrarily large set of libraries, mostly under active and
continuous development.
> An ABI defines a required minimum, and it really should be
> possible to agree upon this.
Yes. POSIX/Unix98, except that there isn't yet support for POSIX
shm/ipc/msg in place. This is coming.
Also, there is no support for Ritchie's Streams I/O system, and it
doesn't look like there will ever be (apparent consensus; lovely and
elegant, shame about the performance hit).
> However, I see that the use of inline
> functions and templates does put library implementation details into
> user code. :-( I have no answer to this problem.
Templates will be done with `export'; God alone knows how that'll be
implemented. Mark Mitchell or another of the true gcc C++ gurus may
know. I haven't a clue.
> So, things are going to get really worse, if the first binary only
> programs for kde appear, aren't they?
They cannot. That would violate the GPL, unless I am much mistaken;
they'd be linking against GPLed libraries, while not themselves being
GPLed.
Likewise binary-only GNOME programs.
--
`> KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS
You must have some, but I don't see any evidence of it.'
--- Craig Hardie flames a luser recruitment consultant
advertising `Microsoft based solutions' on uk.comp.os.linux
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 18:29:50 -0500
From: Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Giving up on NT
Chad Myers wrote:
>
> "Joseph" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> >> Someday, when our OSes require gigabytes of memory... we will look
> >> back and laugh at what you just said :)
>
> >You made a "red herring" argument. The day OSs require gigabytes MS's
> >Windows will require terabytes. Patters of resource abuse never
> >change.
>
> That's BS.
[..]
It is funny. It stings too. From OS/2 to LINUX to BSD. MS's competitors always do
more with less resources.
> You probably could do more with Linux, but why?
Money.
> With 64-128MB of RAM, you can do just about anything with NT
> up to about 35-50 users.
That's funny.
> 128MB of RAM is around $80 for PC100
> so what's the big deal?
It's more than $80 and in my case I'd have to rip out one DIMM to add a higher density
DIMM and what is the price of labor today?
> 64MB isn't much to ask these days, in fact,
> it's pretty much the standard for desktops. 128MB is minimum for
> workstations. Is it too much to ask to put 128MB in a server to
> get full fuctionality out of NT?
The MS motto for W2K is from Oliver: "Please sir can I have more."
> NT workstation, on a default install takes 12MB total.
> NT Server will usually boot to about 20-24MB.
ha ha ha......
> >Sadly for the NT advocate Windows2000 resource demands do not map to
> >more features but to achieving greater OS stability and supporting a
> >unique approach to computing.
>
> They don't? Have you even used Windows2000? Do you even know half
> the features in it? Do you know half of it's innovation?
Innovation.
> Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't be implying that it's "bloat".
30+ million lines of code - for a personal computer desktop OS. That is innovation!!!
> Anyhow, Win2K's memory consumption is not that bad, so this argument
> is moot anyhow. Disk space could be argued, but then, that's dirt
> cheap these days anyhow.
Sure - most advise buying a new PC with W2K prelaoded - dirt cheap these days - only a
few thousand.
> >Shoving a lot of unneeded overhead and
> >crap on to customers so a vendor can maintain a one size-fits-all
> >product is an artifact of a monopoly.
>
> Who's doing this? Not MS in Win2K. If you're implying this, you're
> sorely mistaken.
[...]
> *PL0NK*
Problem solved.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alexander Viro)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: What's GNU/Linux?
Date: 6 Mar 2000 02:25:45 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Edward Rosten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I agree with RMS on this one. Most of what we know as 'Linux' is
>actually GNU stuff.
<sarcasm>
Like X, for one, right? Or Perl. Or TeX. Or MTA-of-your-choice.
Or BIND. Or trn. Or <arbitrary-network-related-stuff>. Or vi. Or...
</sarcasm>
>The kernel is only one bit of the OS.
Sure. And you know what? About the only piece of GNU code we really depend
on is gcc, with GNU make as distant second. Basic utilities? No Thanks.
Look at them someday. As in "read through the code". And then tell whether
you needed a barf-bag. Bloated, overdesigned, trying to outsmart the kernel/
users/everything, full of ifdefs... <bletch>
>Calling
>GNU/Linux Linux kind of takes away the recognition of the FSF.
Umhm. You know, in their place I would be ashamed of such code, but tastes
differ...
>Many
>people think that Linus did the whole lot (more or less), and whilts I
>think that what Linus has done is fantastic, it is worth recognising
>that much of it had already been done - the FSF was just looking for a
>kernel.
FSF would beg to differ... They were (are) making their own kernel.
--
"You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!"
"Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marada C. Shradrakaii)
Subject: Re: A little advocacy..
Date: 06 Mar 2000 07:31:55 GMT
>Then he started to ask:
So? You don't necessarily want that box for that. I have to recall the 'User
Friendly' strip where they complained at productive use of a server interfering
with game playing.
>Will I have drivers for my every hardware purchase included in the box? No
Interestingly, I've had to seperately install more Windows drivers than Linux
ones. Linux: One newer XF86_SVGA (as the old one didn't support my card), one
CD reader patch. Windows (in the same timeperiod): One sound card, two video
cards, one chipset support package.
>Can I exchanged cute .EXEs with my friends in e-mail? No
Who is stupid enough to recieve them?
>Can I write documents to take into work the next day that my boss will be
>able to read easily? No
Odd... I've never had a problem sharing plaintext.... and WP8 exports to plenty
of useful formats.
>but,
><ahem> it won't run anything beyond the command line and maybe act as a
>router, with anything resembling speed)
Try it on a 486/80 with 32M of RAM. I believe you'll be pleasantly surprised
with X.
>Are there easy to use, beginners languages to learn programming in? No
TCL?
>I like setting up windows machines for friends - they don't keep calling me
>for months afterwards asking me how to use text editors and find config
Evidently you don't have to live with them. I am constantly trying to keep a
Win95 install together on another machine. It's no fun, especially when basic
items like "can I delete this" aren't intuitive enough to hand off to someone.
--
Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii
members.xoom.com/marada Colony name not needed in address.
"New Windows feature: distributed.microsoft.com-- Fifty million machines
generating random C code in an attempt to produce the next version of Windows."
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marada C. Shradrakaii)
Subject: Re: Giving up on NT
Date: 06 Mar 2000 07:35:05 GMT
>You probably could do more with Linux, but why?
Because if you use less on overhead, you can use the extra resources for things
like handling more users, breathing room for future or spiking traffic, or
running an extra service. Even if I have 512M of RAM, I still have more free
to work with if my O/S uses 5Mb of it than if it uses 25Mb of it.
--
Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii
members.xoom.com/marada Colony name not needed in address.
"New Windows feature: distributed.microsoft.com-- Fifty million machines
generating random C code in an attempt to produce the next version of Windows."
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alexander Viro)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Binary compatibility: what kind of crack are they smoking?
Date: 6 Mar 2000 02:35:04 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Nix <$}xinix{$@esperi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Also, there is no support for Ritchie's Streams I/O system, and it
>doesn't look like there will ever be (apparent consensus; lovely and
>elegant, shame about the performance hit).
Erm... AFAICS it's rather "_Ritchie's_ variant of STREAMS is lovely and
elegant, but nobody cares about it; the only thing really wanted is the
abortion USG made out of it and _here_ performance hit is nasty (along
with many other things)". IOW, Missed'em'V STREAMS are seriously heavier
(and less elegant), but everybody who wants STREAMS asks for them, not
for original thing. And yes, it's a fscking shame.
--
"You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!"
"Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: prepare Income Tax under Linux?
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 07:39:58 GMT
So why don't you tell him how to do it Terry_the_Porter?
You seem to have all the answers.
pete
On 6 Mar 2000 02:15:13 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry
Porter) wrote:
>On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 23:55:40 GMT,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>I've run both TurboTax and Tax-Cut under Windows with no problems and I
>>don't have Netscape on my machine. Why does he have to jump through all
>>kinds of hoops to run a program?
>>
>>I slapped the CD in and away it went.
>>
>>
>>Typical Linux. It takes 10 operations to do what is sooooooo very simple
>>under Windows.
>Always will for the clue impaired like you Steve.
>
>>
>>Running programs for instance.
>What would you know about programs Steve ?
>
>>
>>What a shame...
>>
>For those that came in late "Pickle" is a multiple personality, windows troll
>who really has little clue, about much at all, let alone Linux.
>
>
>
>Kind Regards
>Terry
------------------------------
From: José Luis Domingo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Salary?
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 07:38:54 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Christopher R. Carlen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Try somewhere in
>
> $45000 <= salary <= $75000
>
> Pretty wide range, but it seems about right, from what I know, which
> isn't much :-D
>
Just in case someone finds it interesting...
Here in Spain, if you have just finished your career and ask for a
salary starting at 7M pesetas ($45K) you will probably end in a mental
institution.
I finished my career in telco's less than a year ago, and what I've been
told by
colleagues the same age is that the starting salary is around 3M pesetas
($18K). It seems we have to go US or UK to get a decent salary...
José Luis Domingo López
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A little advocacy..
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 08:04:10 GMT
You beat me to it but here is some more:
On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:57:42 -0500, "Drestin Black"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>"mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> I just setup a Linux box for a friend. A mediaOne user that wants his on
>> local network.
>>
>> Every question he asked was yes with Linux:
>>
>> Can all my computers get out to the net? Yes.
Assuming he doesn't have the ever popular Winmodem which seems to be
included with just about every pre-load on the planet.
>> Can I share files, you know, like a file server? Yes.
After reading Samba How-to's until your eyes are bleary eyed and red.
If it's so easy why has someone in this group even set up "yet
another"Samba help page" ?
Buy a Linksys Windows networking kit and you will be doing it in 10
minutes or less.
>> Can my wife's Mac use the files? Yes.
See above.
>> Can I put a printer on it, and share that? Yes.
Assuming you paid through the nose for a Postscript printer ala HP.
Winprinters which are included yet again in just about every pre-load
need not apply. Same for many fine non-Winprinters which are reduced
to featureless junk when using Linux, although they may produce "Some"
output.
Same goes for non-SCSI scanners, USB devices, Sound Cards, camera's.
>> Can I get a database for it, you know, like SQL or something? Yes.
Don't use one so no comment.
>> Can my Windows programs use it? Yes.
See above.
>> Can I use the machine to surf the web? Yes.
Assuming you don't have a Winmodem or use a free internet provider or
AOL that requires Windows based sign up procedures.
>> Can I receive E-mail to it? Yes.
Assuming the above works.
>> Can I use it to send e-mail? Yes.
Same
>> Can it be a web server? Yes.
Every home system should have one:)
>> This sort of when on for a bit, and it was kind of fun. The guy had the
>> look of kid in a candy factory. All the things he wanted to do that were
>> once so prohibitively expensive with NT, were now free and more reliable
>> with Linux.
Until he tasted the candy and found out is was Brachs instead of
Godiva and he spit it out due to it's awful taste.
BTW Brachs (sp?) is a cheap candy manufacturer in the USA.
>> The free UNIX camps and OSS generally, really do provide a complete
>> suite of applications and services. Except for compatibility with
>> MS-Office, I can see no reason for Windows NT.
Yea but that last one is a biggie :)
Finally he discovered Freshmeat.net and decided to add some "great"
software to his system and at that point MLW was flooded with phone
calls asking about how and where to find all the missing libraries and
dependencies that were needed to run all of these great new programs
and MLW fed up said, all right go and run Windows!!!
>Then he started to ask:
>Can I play my games on it? Well, one or two of them (Q3 and UT) but
>otherwise, no.
>Can I do my taxes on it? No
Ask Terry Porter about that one. He seems to have the answer.
>Can I run Quicken/Money or their equivilent? No.
>Will I have drivers for my every hardware purchase included in the box? No
Any day now my boy, any day now my child, any day now........
>Can you guarentee that every piece of hardware I will ever buy will have
>drivers included and probably updated newer ones on the companies website?
>No.
Linux plays the catch up game on a daily basis. Linux is ALWAYs
behind, always.
>Can I run the single most popular web browser on the planet?
>Will software manufacturers offer me techsupport when I mention I'm using
>Linux? No
Mozilla is coming.And coming,and coming and coming and coming
and.......
Any day now........................
>Can I exchanged cute .EXEs with my friends in e-mail? No
With the assistance of 10 other programs maybe.
>Can I view any of the files my job sends me to work on? No
Push Linux in your work place and you won't have to worry about a job
:)
>Can I write documents to take into work the next day that my boss will be
>able to read easily? No
See above.
>And there were some more yes's too:
>Is it harder to use? Yes
>Do I have to relearn everything? yes
You run Windows so you MUST be an idiot :)
>Will I have to seek out and find obscure websites all over the world in
>multiple languages to try to get tech support while being laughed at for
>being a newbie and constantly told to RTFM and have to figure out complex
>command lines? Yes
Linux websites are everywhere. Help for this that and the other thing
and the funny thing is they all seem to contradict each other. I get
the feeling nobody in the Linux world really knows what's going on
totally. You have to piece together the good parts and discard the
fluff yourself.
Take a look at all the Sound blaster Live help pages. It's a fucking
joke.
Under Windows install type setup.exe and it works. Done in 10 minutes.
>Can I use this $40 computer I got in a garage sale? Yes! (<cough> but,
><ahem> it won't run anything beyond the command line and maybe act as a
>router, with anything resembling speed)
Lin=boatanchorhardware
>Are there easy to use, beginners languages to learn programming in? No
>Can I configure it myself or will I have to keep calling mlw everytime it's
>broken or I can't get it to do what I want...
Wait till the poor bastard discovers the root account :)
>I like setting up windows machines for friends - they don't keep calling me
>for months afterwards asking me how to use text editors and find config
>files and best of all they stay my friend instead of saying: that shit gave
>me this crappy OS i've been pulling my hair out trying to figure out, while
>my son and his friends have been 1000% more productive on the $700 windows
>system we pickedup from best buy. And they have all the apps right away, 20
>isles of them at said best buy, while I'm off hunting for code to compile,
>begging for help in anonymous newsgroups... ...
Amen!!!
>anyone that puts linux in a desktop PC is just being cruel...
or a complete asshole.
Speaking of asshole's have you met Terr******....Well you know....
Pickle_Pete
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
