Linux-Advocacy Digest #591, Volume #25 Sat, 11 Mar 00 03:13:06 EST
Contents:
Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux ("Jim Ross")
Re: My Windows 2000 experience (Arthur)
Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Disproving the lies. (Christopher Browne)
Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux ("Jim Ross")
Buying Drestin Linux Was (Re: Drestin: time for you to buy UNIX for DumbAsses ("2 +
2")
Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux (JEDIDIAH)
45E13652 Linux in scientific community... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
4E4F2BD2 Linux in scientific community... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Jim Ross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 02:10:03 -0500
Marada C. Shradrakaii <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >10. X-Windows fonts look like shit. Go "borrow" true-type fonts and
> >they still suck. Mac looks great. Windows looks good. Linux looks like
> >shit. Not to mention X-Windows is slow as shit.
> >
>
> Tried XF86 4.0 yet? It's supposed to improve performance, and it's out
NOW.
Missing driver support of XF86 3.3 series.
And that wasn't perfect.
>
> >9. Sound Blaster Live is supported in an abortive manner, if you can
> >even make it work at all.
Many people do, as the orginal poster was saying.
Thus, being called "popular".
Meaning "important to allow one to use easily."
>
> Not everyone owns one, so not everyone cares.
I don't own one and I care.
My friend dumped Linux for this reason.
And he has a dual processor system (which noone has those either)
and the SB Live driver SB provides doesn't work in that case.
>
> >
> >8. Postscript printers are really the only ones that fully function
> >easily under Linux.
>
> My HP 612C works just fine, cost 100USD, and was fairly easily set up. My
> Panasonic 2135 dot-matrix was also easily configured. (on Slack 4.0/7.0
and RH
> 5.1 respectively)
I'm 50% there.
I printer works, one doesn't.
Both work under NT.
>
> >6.Dial up's and Free ISP's as well as AOL.
>
> They should follow standards. That's why they're standards.
>
> If you write your messages in backwards Kilrathi, would you be surprised
if
> nobody can read them? Similarly, AOL/<insert free isp> breaks the
standards of
> dialup connection handling; it's not our business to futz with that when
there
> are better uses of resources.
Either way Linux doesn't provide a way for those AOL users to use AOL in
Linux.
Score: Subtract many possible users. Extra bonus if you own a winmodem.
>
> >5.Netscape. If you hate Netscape, you'll hate Linux cause you have no
> >choice except KDE, a poor substitute or a text based browser, and
> >believe it or not there are folks running these.
>
> I like KFM. Konqueror is supposed to be better yet and out soon, and I
can
> always use Chimera when I need instant loading.
KFM fonts suck for me. Yes I do run a TrueType font server.
I've tried to adjust the KFM fonts. Seems to do nothing.
Rendering is just bad enough that I can't stand using KFM for web browsing
for very long.
>
> >Opera will be
> >out....anyday....anyday......anyday.......
> >Mozilla.....anyday.....anyday.....anyday........
>
> Fetch a beta.
Have you seen the latest Opera? Useless.
And Mozilla, seems many milestones back from the usability that the product
has under Windows.
>
> >How about begging a software or hardware
> >manufacturer to support Linux.
They are too many to convince one by one unfortunately.
There are so many OSes, they really don't bother often times.
>
> Buy with compatibility in mind. I've had to complain about exactly one
> hardware item-- a parallel scanner.
I do this. Often it means buying older, slower, more expensive hardware
though.
>
> >It also looks crude an boxy, like most Linux applications.
>
> So? You're not buying the looks. You're buying the functionality. If
you
> bought the looks, we'd all be using AbiWord under X11 with an elaborate
GTK
> theme.
If AbiWord didn't have so many incomplete dialogs.
It lacks many features in Word.
This formats supported must be 10-20% of those that Word 97 supports.
Linux is nice on the server, but let's be honest, it sucks on the desktop.
First example, I would like to be able to copy a URL in KEDIT and paste that
URL in
the Netscape Location Bar. Doesn't work. Well that says it.
Second example, I would like every GUI app to install a program entry and
icon into my default desktop environment.
As of now, it's a 50-50. Way too low.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:30:19 -0800
From: Arthur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: My Windows 2000 experience
Drestin Black wrote:
> "Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > "Matt Gaia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > : How good is Linux's multiple monitor support? Oh wait, that'd be
> > > useless,
> > > > : I guess. I mean, how much benefit does watching the kernel compile
> > > > : on two screens really provide?
> > > > Oh wait, why would you need Multi-Monitor Support on any system except
> for
> > > > a multimedia system. Just another proof of Windows bells and whistles
> > > > vs. Linux functionality.
> > > ahhh... feature envy denial... <grin>
> > Linux has been doing multiple monitors LONG before Microsoft
> > "invented" it.
> you make it sound like linux actually invented something at all... linux is
> just another unix clone... anything it's got it took from someone else, just
> like the gui's - trying to look more like windows and less like what spawned
> them...
And you make it sound like MS actually invented something, instead of
stealing
it's GUI from Apple who stole from Xerox, violating Stac's patents,
hiring
away Borland's key developers, and stealing more from Unix with each new
version of NT which originally was a VMS clone, cloning CP/M for DOS
and on and on.
BTW, XFree86 4.0 was released yesterday and does multi-monitor support
or will
spread a single desktop over several monitors.
Arthur
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:14:52 GMT
On Thu, 09 Mar 2000 22:01:51 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>10. X-Windows fonts look like shit. Go "borrow" true-type fonts and
>they still suck. Mac looks great. Windows looks good. Linux looks like
>shit. Not to mention X-Windows is slow as shit.
>
>9. Sound Blaster Live is supported in an abortive manner, if you can
Actually, Creative is the party responsible for the drivers
not Corel. The source is coming along quite nicely. Plus
Creative even helped develop a 3D sound API for Linux.
[deletia]
>8. Postscript printers are really the only ones that fully function
>easily under Linux. What you save in dollars on the OS, you will pay
>for on the printer.
This should be listed as reason #10 why Lemming Shills suck
and can't argue their way out of paper bags. This is a common
and refuted lie.
>
>7. Scanners. SCSI scanners still rule in the Linux world although they
>offer no advantage over parallel port scanners, except being supported
>using a crude but appropriately named program called inSANE. This does
What's so crude about it? What's missing exactly.
As far as advantage goes: SCSI is not a kludge layered
over an interface not even intended to be bidirectional
originally and not designed for multiple interfaces.
>not even touch on the fact that all of that great software included
>with your new scanner (Adobe Photoshop, Cannon Greeting card and so
>forth) won't run under Linux. You pay one way or the other....Just
>make sure to send all of those "useless under Linux" programs to me :)
>
>6.Dial up's and Free ISP's as well as AOL. First point AOL does not
>work. That automatically eliminates millions of users from using
>Linux. Secondly, most Free ISP providers require surveys and scripts
>to be run that only run under Windows or Mac. Linux does not work and
>no amount of begging will change anything.
>
>5.Netscape. If you hate Netscape, you'll hate Linux cause you have no
>choice except KDE, a poor substitute or a text based browser, and
Or Mozilla, or Opera, or the browser that's embedded in Star Office.
>believe it or not there are folks running these. Mostly in the Linux
>community, because that's the best they can do. Opera will be
>out....anyday....anyday......anyday.......
>Mozilla.....anyday.....anyday.....anyday........
>
>4.Compatability with the rest of the free world. No Lotus Notes
>Client. Domino server, but no client. Compatibility with Office and
>Lotus is a joke. Some things work ok others die at the starting gate.
Without some actual examples this just more of 'a lemming
shilling out his ass'.
>Do YOU want to be the one to tell your boss to send you a Power point
>presentation as a text file? How about begging a software or hardware
>manufacturer to support Linux. Get used to it. It is the Linux way.
You haven't been keeping up lately. Although, you're the sort
that would be interested in perpetuating such a lie.
>
>3. No real group ware. Star office is ok for a single user and one
>could hardly argue with the price but it is hardly group ware.
>It also looks crude an boxy, like most Linux applications.
Star Office and it's competitors are not in the 'groupware'
category. If you're going to shill for Windows-esque apps
you might as well buy yourself a clue from someone who
actually has a job (other than a paper route).
>
>2. Multimedia is way, way behind even the crudest Windows
>applications. Want to use a far outdated Real Player? Try Linux cause
>that's what it uses. DVD? Coming real soon now...yea right.....
I can play a DVD right now if I want to actually.
>
>1. Fragmentation of the various distributions. Red hat, Corel, SuSE
>and others are all competing for press and that coveted best
>distribution award. As a result RPM's don't work with deb's, libraries
>are incompatible and you will find yourself spending hours if not days
>trying to make even the simplest of tasks working under Linux. Don't
Libraries are not incompatible actually. Infact, Unix has
rather nice features (that are actually used) in terms
of library management.
[deletia]
--
|||
Resistance is not futile. / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:16:48 GMT
On 10 Mar 2000 00:36:24 -0800, david parsons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>There's a cool app called ``appsfilter'' which will set up your
>>/etc/printcap and print filters automagically.
> .
> .
> .
>>I don't know how Linux would handle this, because I use the FreeBSD
>>ports system.
>
> I believe a port of apsfilter is out there for at least one Linux.
> I'm not certain, of course, because I'm the maintainer of yet
> another printer filter -- magicfilter -- and believe strongly
> in sleeping in the beds I built myself. There are two or three
> printing filters for Linux, in varying states of repair, so
> there's no shortage of solutions for this non-problem that our
> increasingly irrational friend is whining about.
I was running apsfilter on Slackware in pre 2.0.x days...
That old copy still worked on Redhat 5.x and 6.x too...
--
|||
Resistance is not futile. / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Disproving the lies.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:36:44 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Donovan Rebbechi would say:
>On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:27:25 -0500, Drestin Black wrote:
>>oops - hehehe - my boo boo, but the point still stands, 600,000 new users
>>this week eh? I don't think so.
>
>Rex Ballard's "statistics" are pure fantasy -- they're more or less
>arbitrary. The redeeming feature is that they're so outrageous that we
>all know that he made them up.
97% of all statistics are made up on the spot. It's true, and
within 5%, 19 times out of 20, I swear... :-)
The Ballard statistics are fairly likely within one or two binary
orders of magnitude of reality; with the number of copies of Linux
on store shelves and the likes, it's *reasonably* likely that there
are more than merely tens of thousands of installs per week. But the
margins of error are quite ferocious...
Some of the "anti-MSFT" scenarios are *quite* entertaining; I suspect they
contain as much fantasy as the statistics, and are likely as realistic
as Al Gore's claims of having invented the Internet...
--
Rules of the Evil Overlord #67. "If the beautiful princess that I
captures says "I'll never marry you! Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!",
I will say "Oh well" and kill her."
<http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html>
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
------------------------------
From: "Jim Ross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 02:23:41 -0500
JoeX1029 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> You're just a stupidass thats all. It's really quite simple to use Linux.
> Have you ever read any books on it?? Not everything is as simple as Win
(or as
> shitty). The next project you try keep in mind you might need to use a
little
> more mental elbow grease.
If something were "easy to use" you wouldn't HAVE to buy a book on it.
I can jump right in and starting using a telephone, a tv, microwave, coffee
maker, etc
Buy a book, please.
Here's easy to use.
Install MS Office 98 in MacOS.
Insert CD. Wait. You are done.
Under Linux.
Since MS Office 98 doesn't exist for Linux or Windows, I'll use Wordperfect
for an example.
Download this big file.
Rename the file because Netscape screwed up the filename. Underscores, etc.
Or put in your cd with Wordperfect on it.
Figure out how to mount the cd and how to access the file. Better copy it
to your harddisk because of the next point.
Rename the file again. Corel screwed up the filename. (It's not a gz, but
actually a tar file).
Untar it somehow.
Know enough to run ./setup instead of setup.
Wait.
Now unmount your Wordperfect cd.
I estimate under MacOS you had to know 1-2 pieces of imformation.
Under Linux, you likely had to know 10-15 pieces of information.
Unscientifically you like had to know up to 7 times more about the process
and ran into several "show-stoppers" along the way.
Even for the experienced, these extra steps are still unnecessary.
Mounting, come on.
dos didn't require mounting of removable media for what 15 years now.
Linux has a way to go to become a decent desktop for normal people.
There are too many things (like fonts) where the finger gets pointed, but
the problem doesn't get solved.
Why overlook so many problems when better alternatives exist for the
desktop?
Jim
------------------------------
From: "2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Buying Drestin Linux Was (Re: Drestin: time for you to buy UNIX for DumbAsses
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 02:42:31 -0500
I'll be glad to chip in on buying Drestin Linux rather than Unix.
The Linux OS only that is.
2 + 2
the kind, generous and always willing to lend a helping hand
The Ghost In The Machine wrote in message ...
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Darren Winsper
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote on 10 Mar 2000 15:14:19 GMT
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 14:32:17 -0500, Nik Simpson
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the issue is one of features rather than robustness, MS would
have
>>> to develop COM etc for LINUX just to have the infrastructure upon which
to
>>> port Word.
>>
>>Well, they could use XPCOM, but it would be rather embarrasing...
>
>As I understand it, Microsoft has *already* ported a good portion
>of COM and other services to Solaris (IE runs there, after all).
>This means that it's possible (Linux = Solaris in most particulars,
>although there are probably significant differences as well).
>
>There's also the issue of whether this is A Good Thing. :-)
>Or whether Microsoft considers this desirable.
>
>[.sigsnip]
>
>--
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- and then there's IE + Wine, too :-)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Top 10 reasons why Linux sux
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:36:07 GMT
On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 01:55:07 -0500, Jim Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> 10. X-Windows fonts look like shit. Go "borrow" true-type fonts and
>> they still suck. Mac looks great. Windows looks good. Linux looks like
>> shit. Not to mention X-Windows is slow as shit.
>>
>
>
>All this is true and when I use Linux as a desktop OS it is very obvious.
>Plus there are other issues like copy, paste and drop and drop. One usually
>doesn't work, the other rarely works ever.
Actually, GNOME handles most of the DND standards. While certain
apps insist on using really oddball widgetsets or DnD protocols,
most of the more common apps have settled on a standard. This
includes KDE. GNOME just goes a little further to the point that
even apps like Netscape can be made to play nice.
>
>So using Linux as a desktop OS is cab be very painful.
>Most of these issues don't affect Linux as a server where I think it's
>great.
>
>And I look at it this way. If there were no Linux, what would be the next
>best alternative to Windows then? ? ? ?
>
>OS/2. I really couldn't deal with that. Sorry to you OS/2 fans out there.
>Linux is the best focusing power of the MS alternative yet. And in that
>light it is very good.
>
>The differences in package formats and versions and stuff don't make up for
>the extreme damage done
>by there being too many different package formats and binary compatibility
>seems to suck under Linux.
For most applications, it's not really and issue. For those where
it is an issue, it usually isn't. Some apps (vmware, oracle) even
relink bits of the package fairly transparently where necessary.
>
>I think whether not one believes there should be so many package formats,
>there would be a large payoff in
>all distributions (or most) adopting a universal package format. I bet tons
>of software developers and companies
>would port if they thought the compatibility was good (i.e. not require 8
>recompiles, and 8 more when those distributions change),
>and stealing Java's thunder, write once, run anywhere, you port once and
>they universal package runs on any distribution.
>
>
>A good example of the problem.
>
>Pretend I'm a new user and want to try Linux on the cheap and have a modem
>like most other users/newbies.
>My Windows apps won't work if I have any.
>Free Corel doesn't come with many apps.
>I buy the "free Corel". Well, most free software on the web is released in
>RPM first or at all. I usually can't use it, even with Alien (too many
>differences you know).
Actually, VA Research just set up a compile farm do deal with
just this issue. Although there's no good reason that the
major distributors just couldn't have an intern chugging out
RPMs and dumping them somewhere at ftp.contribs.companyfoo.com.
[deletia]
--
|||
Resistance is not futile. / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 45E13652 Linux in scientific community...
Date: Sat,11 Mar 2000 02:00:48+2000
http://209.218.86.64/index.html
What is Linux ?: New advanced operating system for businesses , that provides
all kinds of networking, printing and thousands of other applications,
typical Linux applications are less expensive and higher quality than the
ones for Microsoft Windows , Linux rapidly spreading and about to become
single unified operating system for all personal computers by year 2003.
Now new technical illustration and diagramming program for Linux is available !!!
===================================================================================
h t t p : / / w w w . l i n u x c a d . c o m
Linux CAD is the Auto CAD and the Visio for Linux for all practical purposes it
implements
all major features of AutoCAD and Visio in such a way that new users (who had ACAD
experience before)
do not need any additional training to start working with Linux CAD ).
Linux CAD can be used in:
Organizational charts ,
Business process diagramms,
Information network and computer system diagrams,
--> Software Development Flowcharting ,
--> Entity Relationship Diagramming,
Network planning,
System Administration Diagramming and you actually can start
your sysadmin tasks from inside Linux CAD,
--> Mechanical Engineering drafting,
PCB and schematic design ( easily integrated with routing programs ),
Geographicsl Information Systems,
Any kind of drafting where integration with database is important,
Floor plans for buildings and facilities,
--> Architectural Drafting,
Front end for programmable rendering systems like OpenGL,
--> Front end for any software that may require graphics editor functions,
Can be used to replace ACAD in every application later is used !!!
Can be used to replace Visio diagramming tool in every application later is
used !!!
AVAILABLE FOR LINUX TODAY !!! TODAY !!! , DELIVERED TO YOUR DOOR WITHIN 24 Hours.
h t t p : / / w w w . l i n u x c a d . c o m
Create all kinds of technical illustrations , organizational charts and
any kinds of diagramms with Linux CAD , Linux CAD makes a truly consumer
oriented OS out of Linux !!!
http://209.218.86.64/index.html
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 4E4F2BD2 Linux in scientific community...
Date: Sat,11 Mar 2000 02:00:48+2000
http://209.218.86.64/index.html
What is Linux ?: New advanced operating system for businesses , that provides
all kinds of networking, printing and thousands of other applications,
typical Linux applications are less expensive and higher quality than the
ones for Microsoft Windows , Linux rapidly spreading and about to become
single unified operating system for all personal computers by year 2003.
Now new technical illustration and diagramming program for Linux is available !!!
===================================================================================
h t t p : / / w w w . l i n u x c a d . c o m
Linux CAD is the Auto CAD and the Visio for Linux for all practical purposes it
implements
all major features of AutoCAD and Visio in such a way that new users (who had ACAD
experience before)
do not need any additional training to start working with Linux CAD ).
Linux CAD can be used in:
Organizational charts ,
Business process diagramms,
Information network and computer system diagrams,
--> Software Development Flowcharting ,
--> Entity Relationship Diagramming,
Network planning,
System Administration Diagramming and you actually can start
your sysadmin tasks from inside Linux CAD,
--> Mechanical Engineering drafting,
PCB and schematic design ( easily integrated with routing programs ),
Geographicsl Information Systems,
Any kind of drafting where integration with database is important,
Floor plans for buildings and facilities,
--> Architectural Drafting,
Front end for programmable rendering systems like OpenGL,
--> Front end for any software that may require graphics editor functions,
Can be used to replace ACAD in every application later is used !!!
Can be used to replace Visio diagramming tool in every application later is
used !!!
AVAILABLE FOR LINUX TODAY !!! TODAY !!! , DELIVERED TO YOUR DOOR WITHIN 24 Hours.
h t t p : / / w w w . l i n u x c a d . c o m
Create all kinds of technical illustrations , organizational charts and
any kinds of diagramms with Linux CAD , Linux CAD makes a truly consumer
oriented OS out of Linux !!!
http://209.218.86.64/index.html
------------------------------
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