Linux-Advocacy Digest #970, Volume #25 Wed, 5 Apr 00 17:13:07 EDT
Contents:
You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you? ("Leonard F. Agius")
Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you? ("Leonard F. Agius")
Re: Microsoft Uses NDAs To Cripple Competitors (was: Guilty, 'til proven (Bob Lyday)
Re: Group Calendar (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Guilty, 'til proven guilty ("Tim Haynes")
Re: Guilty, 'til proven guilty ("Tim Haynes")
Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS (2:1)
Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS (2:1)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Leonard F. Agius" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you?
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:50:09 GMT
Bob Lyday wrote:
> Shell wrote:
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (redrum) writes:
> > >I already believe that Linux runs on Intel architecture chips. I'm not
> > >sure if they have a good GUI or not, but it's really needed to succeed.
> > >Computer makers have been bullied by M$ into putting only Windows on
> > >their PCs. If they can get those agreements invalidated under the
> > >antitrust ruling, then they'll be free to put whatever they want on
> > >their PCs. Windows runs 95% of PCs now because people will buy what is
> > >common. M$ snagged the market early so that when Joe Blow went out to
> > >buy his first PC, he saw that they all were running Windows so he said
> > >why not. But if a good number of Linux PCs come out with a good GUI and
> > >Windows compatible apps, people will look into them.
> >
> > The Amiga and Macintosh had a chance to do this back in the 1980's when the
> > PC was relatively uncommon in the home market. It didn't happen, despite
> > Commodore actually having the largest share of the home market in the early
> > 80's.
>
> Oh, and M$ pre-loading agreements had nothing to do with it!
> Too bad we aren't running Amiga and Mac now, it'd be a better
> world...
> >
> > There are forces at work here far more powerful that Microsoft, far more
> > powerful than the Computer makers unwillingness to waste their time putting
> > other software on the machines.
>
> If they can sell the box, why is it a waste of time? And they
> can...
>
> That force is the consumer, woe be it to
> > him who defies the will of the consumer.
>
> Gee, M$ has made a career of it, Stevie, how come they don't get
> their due?
You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you? Steve Sheldon had it right on
the nose - there are forces at play here that are truely far more powerful than
either Microsoft, or its detractors. And these forces are ESPECIALLY more powerful
than the detractors are.
John Q. Public, the non-technogeek who can't even program his own VCR, has got a
taste of what you can do with a PC, got learning the Windows OS, and going to Best
Buy or CompUSA to buy his additional toys, be they software or hardware.
Especially now, with USB and Win98, adding some new hardware, like an external CD
burner, is, for these people, a no brainer. Programs like GoBack are taking some
of the stress (real or merely percieved) out of installing new software.
John Q. Businessperson now has an opportunity to buy off-the-shelf, out-of-the-box
solutions, be they Office/Productivity suites, contact managers, image editing,
do-it-yourself-wysiwyg web page editors, etc. And it's being done on Wintel boxes,
with the non technogeek
John Q. Public as the hapless employee that John Q. Businessperson doesn't have to
spend an arm & a leg training to work the Wintel box.
None of these people give a rats hind end what Microsoft's detractors have to say,
because the PC business people who are detractors (the Netscapes, the Sun
Microsytems, the Apples, etc) come off as a bunch of sore losers using politics to
bash someone the public, correctly or incorrectly, perceives as a success, and the
technogeek detractors come off as a bunch of computer elitists who want to keep
the non-technogeek under their collective thumb by creating a hodge-podge of OS's
and non-off-the-retail-shelf software and hardware solutions. All guaranteed to
turn off John Q. Public, the non-technogeek, from becoming a computer user, and
keeping a the whole concept of Personal Computing as something mystical that's
only good enough for the technogeek/computer nerd types (have I offended any of
you, so far...good, I hope so, because I'm trying to).
Not only are their forces at play here that are more powerful than the MS
detractors are, but slap MS with anything other than a token sanction, and allow
the public to percieve their days of EASY, PAINLESS (in their own minds) access to
Personal Computing to be under threat of dominance (again) by the
technogeek/computer nerd types, and you will see a public backlash that some of
you will FEEL, as if someone walked up to and punched you right in the nose. I've
already heard grumbling from shoppers at places like Best Buy and CompUSA - not
exactly the epitome of computer shoppers, but representative of most of the
non-technogeek computer newbie that the majority of the industry now panders
(rightfully so) to.
Frankly, some of them already feel so anxious over any threat to the current
status quo, that they would like nothing more than to start publicly flogging some
of you with a whip tipped with tire irons. Some BestBuy computer department clerk
made some pro-Linux comment, follwoed a reference to Microsoft as "Microsuck", and
one couple got so upset, and so angry, that they went complaining to the store
manager, and this poor kid got sent home, after the couple threatened to putback
the PC, scanner & printer they were planning to buy. I swear, I never saw a store
manager look so flustered over something even I thought was trivial.
Ya know what? About a dozen other shoppers applauded (literally started clapping)
this couple and the other BestBuy computer department clerks, who were definately
pro-Linux technogeek/computer nerd types smarted off to the manager and went off
sulking, and wouldn't help any customers for about five or ten minutes. When they
finally got dragged back to the sales floor, they made real sure everyone else
could see the chip they were carrying on their shoulder over this bullsh*t.
Steve Sheldon gets it. Alot of other non-MS detractors get. Why the hell don't the
rest of you get it? Personal Computing is now MASS MARKET, so all of you who want
to tinker (and since I build my own systems I fall under this group too), who want
to install and run alternative OS's, are now FRINGE USERS. Period.
The rest of the PC Mass Market don't give a shit how Microsoft became dominant,
even when our Windows boxes lock up, crash, and otherwise drive us crazy. For all
the public really cares, Bill Gates could have run over Scott McNeely with his
Bimmer, and bribed Apple execs into running that company into the ground. Personal
Computing is now mass market, Windows is the Defacto standard OS, a lot of the
public have mutual finds that have hold stock in Microsoft, and no one wants this
apple cart upset, especially if it's upset in the favor of the technogeek/computer
nerd types the mass market considers the lunatic fringe. Period.
>
> > --
> <snip ad for Steve>
> --
> Bob
> "There are no significant bugs in our released software that any
> significant number of users want fixed," Bill Gates, in an
> interview with Focus magazine, Oct 23, 1995.
> Remove ".diespammersdie" to reply.
--
Fight SPAM!!! Remove the _nospam from the above address to send e-mail.
The opinions expressed are my own.
------------------------------
From: "Leonard F. Agius" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you?
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:57:16 GMT
>keeping a the whole concept of Personal Computing as something mystical
>that's
>only good enough for the technogeek/computer nerd types (have I offended any
>of
>you, so far...good, I hope so, because I'm trying to).
I'm really not trying to offend anyone, but I couldn't miss the opportunity to be a
smart ass;>) When you're on a roll, you're on a roll.
"Leonard F. Agius" wrote:
> Bob Lyday wrote:
>
> > Shell wrote:
> > >
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (redrum) writes:
> > > >I already believe that Linux runs on Intel architecture chips. I'm not
> > > >sure if they have a good GUI or not, but it's really needed to succeed.
> > > >Computer makers have been bullied by M$ into putting only Windows on
> > > >their PCs. If they can get those agreements invalidated under the
> > > >antitrust ruling, then they'll be free to put whatever they want on
> > > >their PCs. Windows runs 95% of PCs now because people will buy what is
> > > >common. M$ snagged the market early so that when Joe Blow went out to
> > > >buy his first PC, he saw that they all were running Windows so he said
> > > >why not. But if a good number of Linux PCs come out with a good GUI and
> > > >Windows compatible apps, people will look into them.
> > >
> > > The Amiga and Macintosh had a chance to do this back in the 1980's when the
> > > PC was relatively uncommon in the home market. It didn't happen, despite
> > > Commodore actually having the largest share of the home market in the early
> > > 80's.
> >
> > Oh, and M$ pre-loading agreements had nothing to do with it!
> > Too bad we aren't running Amiga and Mac now, it'd be a better
> > world...
> > >
> > > There are forces at work here far more powerful that Microsoft, far more
> > > powerful than the Computer makers unwillingness to waste their time putting
> > > other software on the machines.
> >
> > If they can sell the box, why is it a waste of time? And they
> > can...
> >
> > That force is the consumer, woe be it to
> > > him who defies the will of the consumer.
> >
> > Gee, M$ has made a career of it, Stevie, how come they don't get
> > their due?
>
> You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you? Steve Sheldon had it right on
> the nose - there are forces at play here that are truely far more powerful than
> either Microsoft, or its detractors. And these forces are ESPECIALLY more powerful
> than the detractors are.
>
> John Q. Public, the non-technogeek who can't even program his own VCR, has got a
> taste of what you can do with a PC, got learning the Windows OS, and going to Best
> Buy or CompUSA to buy his additional toys, be they software or hardware.
> Especially now, with USB and Win98, adding some new hardware, like an external CD
> burner, is, for these people, a no brainer. Programs like GoBack are taking some
> of the stress (real or merely percieved) out of installing new software.
>
> John Q. Businessperson now has an opportunity to buy off-the-shelf, out-of-the-box
> solutions, be they Office/Productivity suites, contact managers, image editing,
> do-it-yourself-wysiwyg web page editors, etc. And it's being done on Wintel boxes,
> with the non technogeek
> John Q. Public as the hapless employee that John Q. Businessperson doesn't have to
> spend an arm & a leg training to work the Wintel box.
>
> None of these people give a rats hind end what Microsoft's detractors have to say,
> because the PC business people who are detractors (the Netscapes, the Sun
> Microsytems, the Apples, etc) come off as a bunch of sore losers using politics to
> bash someone the public, correctly or incorrectly, perceives as a success, and the
> technogeek detractors come off as a bunch of computer elitists who want to keep
> the non-technogeek under their collective thumb by creating a hodge-podge of OS's
> and non-off-the-retail-shelf software and hardware solutions. All guaranteed to
> turn off John Q. Public, the non-technogeek, from becoming a computer user, and
> keeping a the whole concept of Personal Computing as something mystical that's
> only good enough for the technogeek/computer nerd types (have I offended any of
> you, so far...good, I hope so, because I'm trying to).
>
> Not only are their forces at play here that are more powerful than the MS
> detractors are, but slap MS with anything other than a token sanction, and allow
> the public to percieve their days of EASY, PAINLESS (in their own minds) access to
> Personal Computing to be under threat of dominance (again) by the
> technogeek/computer nerd types, and you will see a public backlash that some of
> you will FEEL, as if someone walked up to and punched you right in the nose. I've
> already heard grumbling from shoppers at places like Best Buy and CompUSA - not
> exactly the epitome of computer shoppers, but representative of most of the
> non-technogeek computer newbie that the majority of the industry now panders
> (rightfully so) to.
>
> Frankly, some of them already feel so anxious over any threat to the current
> status quo, that they would like nothing more than to start publicly flogging some
> of you with a whip tipped with tire irons. Some BestBuy computer department clerk
> made some pro-Linux comment, follwoed a reference to Microsoft as "Microsuck", and
> one couple got so upset, and so angry, that they went complaining to the store
> manager, and this poor kid got sent home, after the couple threatened to putback
> the PC, scanner & printer they were planning to buy. I swear, I never saw a store
> manager look so flustered over something even I thought was trivial.
>
> Ya know what? About a dozen other shoppers applauded (literally started clapping)
> this couple and the other BestBuy computer department clerks, who were definately
> pro-Linux technogeek/computer nerd types smarted off to the manager and went off
> sulking, and wouldn't help any customers for about five or ten minutes. When they
> finally got dragged back to the sales floor, they made real sure everyone else
> could see the chip they were carrying on their shoulder over this bullsh*t.
>
> Steve Sheldon gets it. Alot of other non-MS detractors get. Why the hell don't the
> rest of you get it? Personal Computing is now MASS MARKET, so all of you who want
> to tinker (and since I build my own systems I fall under this group too), who want
> to install and run alternative OS's, are now FRINGE USERS. Period.
>
> The rest of the PC Mass Market don't give a shit how Microsoft became dominant,
> even when our Windows boxes lock up, crash, and otherwise drive us crazy. For all
> the public really cares, Bill Gates could have run over Scott McNeely with his
> Bimmer, and bribed Apple execs into running that company into the ground. Personal
> Computing is now mass market, Windows is the Defacto standard OS, a lot of the
> public have mutual finds that have hold stock in Microsoft, and no one wants this
> apple cart upset, especially if it's upset in the favor of the technogeek/computer
> nerd types the mass market considers the lunatic fringe. Period.
>
> >
> > > --
> > <snip ad for Steve>
> > --
> > Bob
> > "There are no significant bugs in our released software that any
> > significant number of users want fixed," Bill Gates, in an
> > interview with Focus magazine, Oct 23, 1995.
> > Remove ".diespammersdie" to reply.
>
> --
> Fight SPAM!!! Remove the _nospam from the above address to send e-mail.
>
> The opinions expressed are my own.
--
Fight SPAM!!! Remove the _nospam from the above address to send e-mail.
The opinions expressed are my own.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:58:28 -0700
From: Bob Lyday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
uk.comp.os.linux,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Microsoft Uses NDAs To Cripple Competitors (was: Guilty, 'til proven
phil hunt wrote:
>
> On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:34:40 GMT, Shell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >Rex Ballard has been going around for at least 5 years spreading tales about
> >Microsoft signing agreements with SCO to prevent them from getting into the
> >Unix market. And because everybody *WANTS* to believe it's true, they just
> >accept it as fact without verification.
>
> That's interesting.
>
> Do you (or anyone else) have any factual information either way on whether
> MS agreed with SCO not to re-enter the Unix market?
>
I just read the other day on the Net that M$ just concluded a
suit involving SCO. It was concluded that they engaged in
anti-competitive behavior and they had to pay like $180
million. Pocket change to them. I think the case was brought
in Britain for some reason. I couldn't understand the article.
> --
Bob
"There are no significant bugs in our released software that any
significant number of users want fixed," Bill Gates, in an
interview with Focus magazine, Oct 23, 1995.
Remove ".diespammersdie" to reply.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Group Calendar
Date: 5 Apr 2000 15:55:53 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Rick Kennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>HELP! - We have recently hired an HR Director who fancies herself as a
>technology Guru. We have taken great pains to avoid MS wherever possible
>and are using Netscape 4.x as email and web client throughout the
>organization. (Linux and Apache at the server side). She has started to
>campaign for NT and Exchange (what she was used to from previous life).
>I believe if I could deploy a web based calendar that could be used by
>individuals or teams I could end this threat. Are there any good group
>calendars that will work in our Linux / Apache environment. Appreciate
>any suggestions.
A search for 'calendar' (or just about anything else...) on
www.freshmeat.net shows a number of likely prospects. Take
your pick of commercial/free, php/perl, or sql based. Personally
I'd like to see (and haven't yet) something with a nice
interactive 'ical' style X interface for use at your own
desktop and a web view of the same data for when you need to
use a browser. And, of course, it should sync to a PDA...
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Tim Haynes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: uk.comp.os.linux,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Guilty, 'til proven guilty
Date: 05 Apr 2000 21:38:29 +0100
Reply-To: "Tim Haynes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Craig Brozefsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> David Damerell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Craig Brozefsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >David Damerell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > >>Let us imagine that there is some GPLed code in Windoze. That would
> > >>require all of Windoze to be made available under the GPL, which would be
> > >>very amusing for IBM, Sun, Corel, DEC/Compaq, Apple, the FSF,
> > >>AOL/Netscape/Time Warner/Genom Corporation, etc. I suspect there
> > >>would be no shortage of lawyer money to fight that one with...
> > >Or they could take that GPLed code out of the distribution.
> >
> > They'd still have violated the copyright of the authors of the GPLed code
> > with the earlier versions (implying that money could be extracted); and
> > they'd have quite the problem if they suddenly had to stop distributing
> > all existing versions of Windows, wouldn't they?
>
> Your original assertion is that it would require all of Windoze to be
> made available under the GPL. I was only pointing out that that is not
> necesarry and not likely. I was not implying that there would be no
> damages granted at all.
I trust you're aware of section 2 of the GPL and the subsequent paragraph?
It depends very much on which bits of Windoze are hypothetically in
violation of the GPL - you can surely say that notepad.exe would be one
'work' and write.exe another, for example, in which case one would need to
be GPL'd in entirety but not the other. OTOH if it's something fundamental
like a bit of kernel32.dll... maybe it *is* all screwy.
(Not as though I've seen any GPL'd programs as bad as either "editor" above
;)
~Tim
--
| Geek Code: GCS dpu s-:+ a-- C++++ UBLUAVHSC++++ P+++ L++ E--- W+++(--) N++
| w--- O- M-- V-- PS PGP++ t--- X+(-) b D+ G e++(*) h++(*) r--- y-
| The sun is melting over the hills, | http://piglet.is.dreaming.org/
| All our roads are waiting / To be revealed | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Tim Haynes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: uk.comp.os.linux,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Guilty, 'til proven guilty
Date: 05 Apr 2000 21:45:43 +0100
Reply-To: "Tim Haynes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Haynes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
[]
> >> Some of us prefer to put the emphasis on Open, and feel that the
> >> GPL is way too restrictive. Something to do with not having a
> >> dog-in-a- -manger attitude?
>
> Tim> Well thanks for answering the question. Er, not. Obviously you
> Tim> don't know what 'Open' as applied to 'Open Source' means in the
> Tim> first place, as the GPL doesn't seem particularly restrictive
> Tim> to me.
>
> Im sure that he does know what "open" means. Its quite
> simple.
(You are? How so?) More to the point, '"open" as applied to "open source"'
is *defined* quite clearly and brooks no argument nor talk of "attitude",
merely discussion.
> There has been a long running argument in the free software
> community, about whether software should be free for all to use (which is
> akin to public domain, even if it is not actually public domain). Or
> whether something more restrictive like GPL is correct, which restricts
> modifications and release under anything other than GPL.
>
> There are arguments to be had for both side. My own believe is
> that GPL unfortunate but necessary. It uses copyright and licensing to
> fight fire, with fire as it were, and helps to ensure that software
> remains free in the future. The other argument goes that if we want to
> make software free, it should be for others to modify as they choose, and
> to do with as they choose.
As I hope to have noted elsewhere in this thread, I've been wondering about
this sort of thing a fair bit, particularly whether "having a License" is
actually stooping to playing the same ball-game as the other side -
companies have horrendous licenses, so "free software" (whatever that
means) should have none? Pity, because it wouldn't survive as any form of
"organization" for very long as everyone'd exploit it. So yes, the open-
source definition plus several examples approach is necessary, I
think.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that the GPL is only one such license - it
happens to enforce "once GPL'd, forever GPL'd" rather than "one opened,
forever opened but variable", which also has its pros and cons. But then if
you didn't want GPL, you have a plurality of alternatives.
~Tim
--
| Geek Code: GCS dpu s-:+ a-- C++++ UBLUAVHSC++++ P+++ L++ E--- W+++(--) N++
| w--- O- M-- V-- PS PGP++ t--- X+(-) b D+ G e++(*) h++(*) r--- y-
| The sun is melting over the hills, | http://piglet.is.dreaming.org/
| All our roads are waiting / To be revealed | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:15:59 +0100
> Don't make me laugh. My $69.00 Canon scanner came with enough "free"
> software to blow the doors off anything Linux has, including Gimp.
> Not to mention it worked perfectly out of the box.
> The wizards did everything from configuring to prompting me through
> making my first scan.
>
> Worked like a charm right out of the box and no overpriced SCSI
> needed.
>
> Sane?
>
> Should be called insane...What a joke.....
>
> Linux misses the boat again. When will you people understand that
> setup.exe is your friend?
>
> In this case all I did was pop the CD in and away it went.
No offence, but you Winvocates are *always* buying scanners and DVDs. How many can you
realistically use at once, even if they do work out of the box?
But seriously, though, SCSI scanners give noticable performance increases over parallel
ones, but it obvioulsy comes at a price. Personally, I can spend the mmoney I saved on
software, on hardware. You're choice (and aren't you glad that you do have a choice)?
-Ed
--
Did you know that the oldest known rock is the famous Hackenthorpe rock, which
is over three trillion years old?
-The Hackenthorpe Book of Lies
------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:23:38 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Going back?
>
> They never left the stoneage.
>
> A pencil and paper is an improvement to someone running Linux.
I know someone who used the said pencil to write the OEM code wor his windows 95
license on the moniter, because it seemed to need reinstalling so often. He never had
to do a linux re install.
-Ed
>
> Steve
>
> On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:09:03 GMT, "Chad Myers"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >Seems to be the trend eh? Can't find good apps for Linux, end up going back
> >to Paper/Pencil just so you won't have to use that Evvvillll M$ software, right?
> >
> >-Chad
> >
--
Did you know that the oldest known rock is the famous Hackenthorpe rock, which
is over three trillion years old?
-The Hackenthorpe Book of Lies
------------------------------
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