Linux-Advocacy Digest #970, Volume #32 Wed, 21 Mar 01 13:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism ("Shades")
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism ("Shades")
Re: the truth about linux ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism (.)
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism (.)
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism (.)
Re: More FUD from Ballmer (.)
Kulkis not Chad, Gates (was Re Unix/Linux Professionalism) (Ian Pulsford)
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism (Girard)
Re: GPL Like patents. (Roberto Alsina)
Re: More FUD from Ballmer (Ian Pulsford)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:39:00 -0500
"." wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "." wrote:
> >>
> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > "." wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> > "." wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> >> > "." wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> > "." wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> > "." wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Stephen S. Edwards II
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Shades <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > 8<SNIP>8
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > First of all, Aaron R. Kulkis is considered a
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > blithering idiot by both COLA and COMNA
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > participants. Secondly, if you think that
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > there are no irrational, childish, idiotic
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > NT advocates, then you might want to lurk
> >> >> >> >> >> >> > about on some of the various IRC nets.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >> Actually, kulkis and chad meyers are almost exactly the same
>person. Substitute
> >> >> >> >> >> >> "linux" for "windows" appropriately, and you absolutely cannot
>tell them
> >> >> >> >> >> >> apart.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > Wrong.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> You appear to be the only one who thinks so, again, just like chad.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > I know what the fuck I'm talking about.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> With a few things yes, just like chad. But but your paranoid
>political philosophies
> >> >> >> >> >> are IDENTICAL to chads.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > I have the university
> >> >> >> >> >> > education
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> So does chad, and so do I.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > AND the real-world experience to know what the fuck
> >> >> >> >> >> > I'm talking about.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Chad says he does too.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > Chad, on the other hand, spews Microsoft propaganda.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> You spout the same paranoid conspiracy theorist crap.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > I wonder how much they pay him each month to post his propaganda.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Ah, theres that paranoia again.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > And yes, Microsoft DOES pay people to post on this and other
>newsgroups.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Alright kulkis, ive asked you before and youve patently refused, but
>how bout
> >> >> >> >> >> some absolute evidence of this statement?
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > You forget the discovery of the "astroturfing" campaign so quickly?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > For those who don't get it...that was Microsoft's decision to start
> >> >> >> >> > financing a campaign of paid correspondance to *LOOK LIKE* "grassroots"
> >> >> >> >> > support.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > fake grass => astroturf.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Right, I remember that, but I also dont remember seeing ANY kind of
>evidence
> >> >> >> >> that there were ever microsoft plants in COLA. I'm not saying that it
>hasnt
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Got alzheimer's?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Got a link? Thats all im really asking for. Lets say for the moment that
>I am
> >> >> >> moderately retarded and have no capacity for retention at all.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Then discussing anything with you is pointless, isn't it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Now aaron, you're coming dangerously close to simply admitting that you have
>exactly
> >> >> zero evidence to back up your claim. I'm ready to believe it, really I am, but
> >> >> I do not believe that which I read simply because YOU type it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Seriously, I really would like to see a link or SOMETHING.
> >>
> >> > http://www.google.com/
> >> > search for Microsoft astroturf
> >>
> >> > http://www.computerworld.com/cwi/story/0,1199,NAV47-74_STO30565,00.html
> >>
> >> Yes yes, I know about all of these. Theres nothing in any of them lending any
>evidence
> >> in support of the theory that there are people being payed by microsoft to post
>FUD in
> >> COLA.
> >>
>
> > Todd Needleham.
>
> > I reset my case.
>
> Youve rested it on nothing at all. EVIDENCE, kulkis. Its not too terribly
>difficult a
> concept. I'm not about to believe anything that *anyone* says (even if I really
>want to)
> simply because they SAY it.
Todd Needleham was a Microsoft employee who ADMITTED to being paid to
posting to this newsgroup.
>
> You're probably christian, arent you.
>
> -----.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:40:01 -0500
Shades wrote:
>
> > Youve rested it on nothing at all. EVIDENCE, kulkis. Its not too
> terribly difficult a
> > concept. I'm not about to believe anything that *anyone* says (even if I
> really want to)
> > simply because they SAY it.
> >
> > You're probably christian, arent you.
>
> I have seen Kulkis say some nutty things and yeah he sometimes seems blinded
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Translation: Shades's limited understanding => speaker is nutty.
> by his hatred but your one statement outdid him. I am not a religious man
> but I don't take kindly to people who start down this road of bull. You
> really shouldn't have said that.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "Shades" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:42:35 -0500
>
> If you can't trust the guy you hired specifically to give you such
> advice, then you shouldn't have hired him in the first place.
>
I agree but for some reason it doesn't work out that way. I think the
guy's background may be technically sound but he pisses off his boss too
much by calling him an idiot in so many words without explaining to him why.
Thus over time the boss doesn't even trust his own people even though they
are right on the money. As I said this situation makes it easy for the boss
to simply make the "bad" decision and just simply order the guy to implement
it. My point.
------------------------------
From: "Shades" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:48:42 -0500
> Awwwwwwwww, did I touch a nerve.....shill.
>
Not at all just thought it was funny after attempting to wade through all
you responses to Jan.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: the truth about linux
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:22:35 -0500
Edward Rosten wrote:
>
> > The MSCEs also recommend defragging the hard drive once a week and fix
> > the registry as well.
> > I've never had to defrag under Solaris and I don't have a registry to
> > fix.
>
> I've only once seen a harddrive that needed defragging under Linux. It
> was abused with a cycle that went like this:
>
> Create a large bunch of small and medium sized files and a couple of
> huge ones. Delete some and repeat hundreds of times.
>
> By the end, it couldn't sustain an 8x write on to a CD.
>
This is easily solved by dumping the filesystem to tape, (using
tar, or dump, or whatever you prefer) deleting
all of the files on that filesystem, and reloading the files
back from tape.
> -Ed
>
> --
> Did you know that the oldest known rock is the famous |u98ejr
> Hackenthorpe rock, which is over three trillion years |@
> old? |eng.ox
> -The Hackenthorpe Book of Lies |.ac.uk
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: 21 Mar 2001 17:51:04 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Shades <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Youve rested it on nothing at all. EVIDENCE, kulkis. Its not too
> terribly difficult a
>> concept. I'm not about to believe anything that *anyone* says (even if I
> really want to)
>> simply because they SAY it.
>>
>> You're probably christian, arent you.
> I have seen Kulkis say some nutty things and yeah he sometimes seems blinded
> by his hatred but your one statement outdid him. I am not a religious man
> but I don't take kindly to people who start down this road of bull. You
> really shouldn't have said that.
Fuck you. I despise blind belief of ANYTHING without sufficient evidence, and
that includes god.
If you dont like that I think that way, you are free to go and read something
else.
Thanks in advance,
=====.
--
"The city's all wrapped up in plastic like an electronic cocoon;
if you lay in the street you can hear it humming"
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: 21 Mar 2001 17:51:44 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Shades wrote:
>>
>> > Youve rested it on nothing at all. EVIDENCE, kulkis. Its not too
>> terribly difficult a
>> > concept. I'm not about to believe anything that *anyone* says (even if I
>> really want to)
>> > simply because they SAY it.
>> >
>> > You're probably christian, arent you.
>>
>> I have seen Kulkis say some nutty things and yeah he sometimes seems blinded
>> by his hatred but your one statement outdid him. I am not a religious man
>> but I don't take kindly to people who start down this road of bull. You
>> really shouldn't have said that.
> Kulkis is kinda' the Derek Smart of this newsgroup. He's not all bad,
> but generally you can goad him into saying some pretty funny things so
> he's good for a laugh. When he doesn't let his temper get to him, he's
> actually semi-personable.
> But I had to killfile him and I recommend you do too. You
> can't/shouldn't argue with someone who's that unstable.
Kulkis didnt say that, you ignorant turd, *I* did.
=====.
--
"The city's all wrapped up in plastic like an electronic cocoon;
if you lay in the street you can hear it humming"
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: 21 Mar 2001 17:53:18 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Chad Everett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2001 16:55:26 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>You're probably christian, arent you.
>>
> What does this have to do with anything discussed in this forumn?
Quite alot actually. But only from a handful of people who are willing to believe
anything they hear that sounds cool.
> You're probably a religious bigot who believes in Aliens and UFOs, aren't you.
I am certianly a religious bigot. I hate most religious people. Few exceptions.
I dont actually believe in aliens OR UFOs, though I at the same time dont entirely
discredit their possible existance.
> When did you stop beating your wife?
I'm not married, but if I were I would beat her as much as I could, and im quite
sure shed enjoy it too.
=====.
--
"The city's all wrapped up in plastic like an electronic cocoon;
if you lay in the street you can hear it humming"
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.)
Subject: Re: More FUD from Ballmer
Date: 21 Mar 2001 17:54:18 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "." wrote:
>>
>> Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Ray Chason wrote:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010320S0002
>> >>
>> >> Long on FUD, short on specifics. The thrust is that IBM's support
>> >> of Linux doesn't matter much, Linux is a toy, we here at Microsoft
>> >> can't steal^H^H^H^H^Hinnovate it, etc.
>> >>
>>
>> > Microsoft HAILSTORM....
>>
>> > Probably a fitting name, considering how much damage most Microsoft
>> > products cause.
>>
>> How much is RedHat paying you to post here?
> RedHat can't afford me.
UNIX systems engineer eh?
I bet they can.
=====.
------------------------------
From: Ian Pulsford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Kulkis not Chad, Gates (was Re Unix/Linux Professionalism)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:05:00 +1000
"." wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Stephen S. Edwards II <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Shades <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > 8<SNIP>8
>
> > First of all, Aaron R. Kulkis is considered a
> > blithering idiot by both COLA and COMNA
> > participants. Secondly, if you think that
> > there are no irrational, childish, idiotic
> > NT advocates, then you might want to lurk
> > about on some of the various IRC nets.
>
> Actually, kulkis and chad meyers are almost exactly the same person. Substitute
> "linux" for "windows" appropriately, and you absolutely cannot tell them
> apart.
>
> -----.
You are wrong my friend, Kulkis is in fact Bill Gates himself, doing his
own bit of astroturfing. Who else would want to make Linux advocacy
look so bad? Why do you think Gates stepped down from the position of
CEO: so he could post an average of about 120 posts to usenet everyday
(based on average for total posts posted by "kulkis" according to
groups.google.com/advanced_group_search) since 1 Jan this year. Kulkis,
who claims to be a Unix Systems Engineer who is paid thousands of
dollars a day by Fortune 500 companies also claims he can post so many
messages because he works smart not hard. I suspect he is either Bill
Gates or just some git sitting on his arse all day reading and posting
usenet.
Bill: "Steve, post another Myers, we'll get those COLA fools riled up."
Steve: "Whatever you say Kulkis."
(Bill and Steve ROTFLTAO)
IanP
PS. My money is actually on Kulkis being a sad little git with too much
time on his hands. Read the posts on groups.google.com (especially
us.military.army) and decide for yourself. The word liar crops up way
too much.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:01:27 -0500
From: Girard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
"." wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Chad Everett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > When did you stop beating your wife?
>
> I'm not married, but if I were I would beat her as much as I could, and im quite
> sure shed enjoy it too.
Since you don't have a wife, your "wife" is your schlong. Therefore,
you're telling us you love to spank your monkey. Be sure to beat "her"
a couple of times for the rest of the NG members! LOL.
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPL Like patents.
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:04:12 -0300
T. Max Devlin wrote:
> Said Roberto Alsina in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Tue, 20 Mar 2001
> [...]
>>Perhaps you can understand that RMS and I disagree on what "basing" means.
>
> If its that simple, why do you have to keep pretending that his
> definition is somehow conflicted in ways that it frankly is not?
You still don't understand. One of the reasons I disagree with RMS's
definition of "based" is because it is arbitrary and leads to internal
conflicts and contradictions.
> Why
> not just say "I wish that RMS's idea of 'basing' wasn't sufficient to
> make the GPL effective." Its a lot more honest.
The meaning of "effective" depends on what your goal is. In some ways, the
GPL is not effective.
Max, don't force me to killfile you, please. You are stupid, but I have not
killfiled anyone in years.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Ian Pulsford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More FUD from Ballmer
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:10:45 +1000
"." wrote:
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "." wrote:
> >>
> >> Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > Ray Chason wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20010320S0002
> >> >>
> >> >> Long on FUD, short on specifics. The thrust is that IBM's support
> >> >> of Linux doesn't matter much, Linux is a toy, we here at Microsoft
> >> >> can't steal^H^H^H^H^Hinnovate it, etc.
> >> >>
> >>
> >> > Microsoft HAILSTORM....
> >>
> >> > Probably a fitting name, considering how much damage most Microsoft
> >> > products cause.
> >>
> >> How much is RedHat paying you to post here?
>
> > RedHat can't afford me.
>
> UNIX systems engineer eh?
>
> I bet they can.
>
> -----.
RedHat people don't hang out at gay glory holes joints anyway.
IanP
------------------------------
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