Linux-Advocacy Digest #972, Volume #25 Wed, 5 Apr 00 18:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Microsoft Uses NDAs To Cripple Competitors (was: Guilty, 'til proven guilty
("Robert Moir")
Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you? (Damien)
Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS supporters. (CG)
Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS supporters.
("Chad Myers")
Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS supporters.
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS (2:1)
Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS (2:1)
Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS supporters.
(Darren Winsper)
Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you? ("Chad Myers")
Re: Linux stocks soar in aftermarket trading (Marty)
Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you? ("Chad Myers")
Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS supporters. ("Chad
Myers")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Robert Moir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
uk.comp.os.linux,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Microsoft Uses NDAs To Cripple Competitors (was: Guilty, 'til proven
guilty
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:44:52 +0100
"Bob Lyday" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> phil hunt wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:34:40 GMT, Shell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >Rex Ballard has been going around for at least 5 years spreading tales
about
> > >Microsoft signing agreements with SCO to prevent them from getting into
the
> > >Unix market. And because everybody *WANTS* to believe it's true, they
just
> > >accept it as fact without verification.
> >
> > That's interesting.
> >
> > Do you (or anyone else) have any factual information either way on
whether
> > MS agreed with SCO not to re-enter the Unix market?
> >
> I just read the other day on the Net that M$ just concluded a
> suit involving SCO. It was concluded that they engaged in
> anti-competitive behavior and they had to pay like $180
> million. Pocket change to them. I think the case was brought
> in Britain for some reason. I couldn't understand the article.
> > --
Isn't "I read the other day on the Net" the modern version of "It happened
to my brother's cousin's aunt's friend's uncle"
URL please.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Damien)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 05 Apr 2000 21:42:21 GMT
On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:18:46 GMT, in alt.destroy.microsoft,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:50:09 GMT, "Leonard F. Agius"
| <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| accumulated over the years just to run wannabe Linux applications with
| crude, sometimes down right hostile interfaces (sendmail comes to
| mind).
| You Linvocates have got to be kidding.
Sendmail is not an "app". It's a deamon, a mail transfer agent to be
specific.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (CG)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS supporters.
Date: 05 Apr 2000 17:50:01 EDT
On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 00:23:52 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>On 04 Apr 2000 23:51:37 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Damien) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:57:04 GMT, in alt.destroy.microsoft,
>>Leonard F. Agius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>| > Most people have some requirements that go beyond the standard
>>| > WP/Spreadsheet/Browser. I need a financial app like Quicken or MS Money, a
>>| > tax preparation program like TurboTax, TaxCut, or TaxSaver, and project
>>| > management software like MS Project or CA-SuperProject. These don't exist
>>| > for Linux. I also can't manage my bank accounts online. That requires
>>| > either Windows or Mac.
>>
>>Finace management and tax preparation
>>http://freshmeat.net/appindex/x11/financial.html
>>
>>My bank allows me to use any browser capable of SSL.
>
>You're joking right?
>
>You are comparing a collection of checkbook balancing programs to
>QuickBooks ?
>
>Oh, I really like PTax98. "Computes MOST of the 1998 Federal 1040EZ?
>
>I'll bet the IRS is real interested in the part it doesn't compute.
>
>I'll be sure to watch for the 2000 update so I can switch from
>TaxCut...
>
>What a joke....
>
>Steve
>
I don't get it. What does tax software have to do with linux? The
fact that intuit (turbo tax) doesn't develop its program for linux is
only a marketing decision by intuit, it has nothing to do with windows
or linux as operating systems. they just want to sell the most
programs possible.
if the tables were reversed, and linux were on 95 percent of the
desktops, do you think intuit would still be developing turbo tax for
windows?
I certainly understand why you use windows based products to do your
taxes, I do too, but I still think linux is a better o/s.
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS supporters.
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:50:48 -0500
"2:1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > A pencil and paper is an improvement to someone running Linux.
>
> I know someone who used the said pencil to write the OEM code wor his windows
95
> license on the moniter, because it seemed to need reinstalling so often. He
never had
> to do a linux re install.
>
> -Ed
Hey, Linux is better than Win95, that's something to brag about. Woohoo.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS supporters.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:53:48 GMT
On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:40:02 +0100, 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:So you are going to run those same nasty BSOD
>producing Windows
>
>> applications under Linux?
>>
>> Sure makes sense to me :(
>
>There may be a reason for some.
>
>
>> The all mighty dollar is the ultimate motivator. Quicken, TurboTax,
>> Agent and so forth are realities because of $$$$$.
>
>Linux and many of its followers are not motivated primarily by $$$. Ultilately,
>some things are more satisfying, and at the expense of a cliche, and you can't
>throw money at them to become a wholesome person.
And that is all nice and good but that is exactly the reason why Linux
software is so far behind Windows software that it isn't even a fair
contest.
>> In contrast Linux has a hodge podge collection of semi related, half
>> done utilities (there must be millions of them), because there is no
>> motivation to produce a quality, easy to use and look at piece of
>> software. No deadline, nobody to scream when it sucks (it's free what
>> do you expect?).
>
>That sounds more like the millions of windows shareware products scattered around.
Like WinAmp and MusicMatch? Or how about PaintShop pro?
Winzip?
I could go on for hours with software that is shareware for Windows
and has been, cloned terribly I might add, for Linux.
>Most linux things work much better. There is an unquanitfiably HUGE motivation to
>produce the very best that you can. Because so many people can see the code, it is
>motivation to write the best software that you are capable of.
I see it as a collection of half done utilities that most folks have
no use for.
>Lack of deadlines prevent buggy, broken software being pushed out. And, as for
>people not screaming, where did you get that idea from? If software is made by a
>huge company like MS, you, personally, could scream until blue in the face and get
>nowhere, by contrast, you could easily contact the autoor of the [insert OSS
>program here], or even fix it yourself.
I agree with you there, but personally I have not had any problems
with commercial software.
>How does freedom with software make it automatically buggy?
It makes it cheap looking and half done looking.
Take a look at typical Linux applications and you will see. Maybe in
another 5 years they will look complete, but for now.......
>
>> When commercial applications coders see $$$$ in Linux the quality
>> applications will come. Until then?
>
>The quality is there already. I use linux for everything except games.
>TeX typesets beautiful docs for me.
If you want to learn the interface that's fine.
Show TeX to a secretary and she will scream.
>GCC compiles my (hopefully) beautiful programs, with an optimiser at no extra
>cost. c.f VC++
Just what the home user needs.
>Vi (yep, I actually like it) and XEmacs provide all my editing needs
Another home user program. VI is powerful no doubt but most folks need
wordpad and that's it. The first time vi starts beeping at them it
will be dumped, pronto.
>The list goes on...
Into the land of nowhere....
>...and if I get my tax back soon enough, the gov does most of it for me :-)
Hee hee...Good one :)
>I have all the quality I need. I also have the power and flexibility that I need.
>But for people who don't like what I do, then, roll on commercial apps for linux.
That's a plus for you. It will be a hard sell to Joe Windows User
though.
>> What you see is what you get.
>
>I see a lot more in Linux than Windows, therefore I get more.
Fair enough. You are entitled to that.
>
>-Ed
Steve
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:58:50 GMT
On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:39:36 -0400, Matt Gaia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>>The public at large is curious about Linux. Curious until they
>>actually try it, if they even get that far after they read the read
>>me. Oh yea that's IF they can read the readme because a lot of them
>>are PS files and PS is a virtual unknown in the Windows world. Then
>>they have to have a partitioned drive, risk data loss
>
>Nope, spend about $20 and get Partition magic 4 or 5. Works fine, no data
>loss.
You know about partitions. I know about partitions. The typical
Windows user knows C:\windows and that's it.
>>Quite frankly folks are not interested in returning to the 1980's
>>editing text files. Show them Pine after they have been using Outlook
>>and they will be laughing out loud.
>
>Ok, try kmail (under KDE) then. Works just as well as well as Outlook
>(and probably a little faster).
Tried it...yuk.........
>>>Frankly, some of them already feel so anxious over any threat to the current
>>>status quo, that they would like nothing more than to start publicly flogging some
>>>of you with a whip tipped with tire irons. Some BestBuy computer department clerk
>>>made some pro-Linux comment, follwoed a reference to Microsoft as "Microsuck", and
>>>one couple got so upset, and so angry, that they went complaining to the store
>>>manager, and this poor kid got sent home, after the couple threatened to putback
>>>the PC, scanner & printer they were planning to buy. I swear, I never saw a store
>>>manager look so flustered over something even I thought was trivial.
>>
>
>A couple got upset about someone making an anti-M$ comment? Christ. And
>who says complaining about something totally stupid and irrelevant is
>dead? <grin>
>
>>My wife works at one of the very large national chains and you would
>>not believe how many folks come back returning Linux and screaming out
>>loud that it F%#$#d up their hard drive and they lost all their data.
>
>Example of people not knowing what they are doing. They're $.10/dozen
>anymore thanks to Windows.
True, but it is the reality of the situation and a point the
Linvocates fail to be able to grasp.
>>Linux is numero uno in returns and nothing is even close.
>>Makes me wonder how many of those cheapbytes CD's and downloads of
>>Linux are REALLY being used.
>
>Mine's still being used about every other week by people who want to try
>something other than Windows.
That's fine.
>>
>>>Ya know what? About a dozen other shoppers applauded (literally started clapping)
>>>this couple and the other BestBuy computer department clerks, who were definately
>>>pro-Linux technogeek/computer nerd types smarted off to the manager and went off
>>>sulking, and wouldn't help any customers for about five or ten minutes. When they
>>>finally got dragged back to the sales floor, they made real sure everyone else
>>>could see the chip they were carrying on their shoulder over this bullsh*t.
>
>That's not being pro-linux. That's just being dumbasses. They could be
>pro-MS and the manager being pro-linux. The same thing woulda happened.
Sounds like a lot of Linvocates in this group work at BestBuy :)
>>Yep. While most would agree MS's tactics were less than honorable, all
>>they care about is their software and business. Microsoft has made
>>this happen. Linux has not, and as far as the desktop at it's current
>>rate of improvement never will.
>
>*awards the understatement of the year award* They're not just less than
>honorable, they have been proven illegal.
Sure they have, and if suits were brought against the major
corporations in USA they would be guilty also.
Doesn't make it right, but frankly, end users really don't care that
much.
>>Yea, they don't like me because I have actually tried and used Linux
>>and can speak from my miserable experience unlike most of the
>>Linvocates whose last experience with Windows was Win95 original
>>version.
>
>My last experience was w2k. Until I pulled it back off and put 98SE back
>on.
Haven't tried Win2k yet. Too costly for me....
Steve
------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:15:47 +0100
> Linux advocates talk about stability. How stable is a program supported by
> a single person, when that person goes off to do something else? That's why
> user support is a team effort.
If someone stops working on a project, it won't instantly crash... and someone
else may well take it up.
> Stallman is a master of double think. He considers violations of copyright
> like software piracy no more than ``sharing information with your
> neighbor'', and then he uses those same copyright laws to set up GPL, where
> it states, "You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program
> except as expressly provided under this License", and "These actions are
> prohibited by law if you do not accept this License ".
That's out of neccessity. If it didn't have those terms, people could legally
use the code and NOT pass on the source, which is not what Free Software is
about. The license is needed to keep the free software free. I, personally like
that.
> BTW, he gets pissed when you say Linux. You're supposed to call it
> GNU/Linux, in deference to him, I suppose. He's definitely out standing in
> his field.
C'mon! There is a HUGE amount of GNU stuff in a GNU/Linux distro. Over half, and
most of it was there fisrt. Don't you think that GNU deserve some credit?
> I don't use StarOffice too much, so Office would be a waste of money. The
> WP is OK, but I could get along just fine with MSWorks (I got it for FREE
> when I bought my desktop). I use DB2 Universal Database (FREE for personal
> use), so I don't need Access, and the StarOffice spreadsheet will work with
> DB2.
StarOffice is passable. I quite like, actually, esp. because the browser is much
more stable than Netscape.
-Ed
--
Did you know that the oldest known rock is the famous Hackenthorpe rock, which
is over three trillion years old?
-The Hackenthorpe Book of Lies
------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:17:44 +0100
> Nobody cares. BestBuy had 3 or 4 versions of Linux on their shelves
> yesterday, and not a single one said GNU/Linux on the box. Maybe that's
> because without the Linux kernel, there wouldn't be a single GNU product on
> those shelves.
>
> fmc
Who the hell would use *just* an OS kernel. Much as we all love it, it is no use
on its own.
--Ed
--
Did you know that the oldest known rock is the famous Hackenthorpe rock, which
is over three trillion years old?
-The Hackenthorpe Book of Lies
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Darren Winsper)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS
supporters.
Date: 5 Apr 2000 22:05:34 GMT
On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:26:32 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tim Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > The initial tests were rigged. The fact that subsequent
> > non-rigged tests, while still showing NT outperforming linux on
> > this test, also proved that the previous ones were indeed rigged.
>
> The initial tests weren't rigged.
Yes they were.
> The initial testers simply did not have
> access to the information to configure Linux optimally,
/usr/doc/apache-doc? IIRC someone went through the appropriate man
page showing how the configuration file was altered in ways that would
kill performance.
> and in true Linux
> fashion were ridiculed on the newsgroups for asking questions.
There are no references to support that. There was *one* message found
that could have been what Mindcraft were refering to, and it *was*
answered to an extent, but the person ansering needed more information,
which was never supplied.
--
Darren Winsper (El Capitano) - ICQ #8899775
Stellar Legacy project member - http://www.stellarlegacy.tsx.org
DVD boycotts. Are you doing your bit?
This message was typed before a live studio audience.
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you?
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:04:26 -0500
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Linux is numero uno in returns and nothing is even close.
> Makes me wonder how many of those cheapbytes CD's and downloads of
> Linux are REALLY being used.
Perhaps they will start competing for AOL CDs in terms of numbers unused.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: Marty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux stocks soar in aftermarket trading
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:01:09 GMT
George Marengo wrote:
>
> On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:52:00 -0500, "Chad Myers"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >As far as businesses taking them seriously, I still don't see any major
> >industries using it for any serious tasks -- SAP, PeopleSoft, Baan,
> >or other ERP type software, major databasing/datawarehousing/data mining,
> >analysis. All I see it doing is web serving (if that) and perhaps a DNS
> >server here or there, which, don't get me wrong, it does a really good
> >job at.
>
> The only one in your list that looks like it's doing anything at all
> is SAP -- but true, no hard evidence that anyone is actually using it
> for business use.
>
> http://www.sap.com/solutions/technology/linux/index.htm
How about IBM's stance on Linux? It has approached the level of equal footing
with, if not surpassing Java as far as their e-Business strategy is concerned.
--
The wit of Bob Osborn in action:
"Perhaps it something you should try to your kids don't end up as stupid as
you."
"There is an old saying fartface."
"Not only are you a filthy low-life lying bastard pig, you are too stupid to
know it."
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: You anti-Microsoft types just don't get it, do you?
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:05:02 -0500
"Damien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:18:46 GMT, in alt.destroy.microsoft,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:50:09 GMT, "Leonard F. Agius"
> | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> | accumulated over the years just to run wannabe Linux applications with
> | crude, sometimes down right hostile interfaces (sendmail comes to
> | mind).
> | You Linvocates have got to be kidding.
>
> Sendmail is not an "app". It's a deamon, a mail transfer agent to be
> specific.
So that makes its ok that it is horrible to configure and administrate?
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The Failure of Microsoft Propaganda -was- So where are the MS supporters.
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:08:15 -0500
"Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Well, write your own. I mean, you guys hoot and hollar about how easy
> > it is for people to just sit down and start coding apps, why not right
> > you're own. I mean, this stuff comes naturally to you guys, doesn't it?
>
> I knew you'd become an open-source software advocate eventually.
Never mentioned Open Sores.
> Seriously though, if I had the source to Cricket Graph, I'd be
> compiling it right now using Metrowerks for PPC.
Neither did I say get the source, I said make your own. I mean, that's
what you guys chastize us for not being able to do. Just crank out your
own code from scratch.
-Chad
------------------------------
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