Linux-Advocacy Digest #102, Volume #26 Thu, 13 Apr 00 02:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: From the Horse's Mouth (Roger)
Re: Linux for a web developer (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: From the Horse's Mouth (Roger)
Re: Vehical Comparisons (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Corel Linux Office 2000 and Win32 Emulator Making Progress (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Linux for a web developer (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: From the Horse's Mouth (Roger)
Re: Which distro for server?? (Bloody Viking)
Re: Running as administrator all the time Re: Linux Virus Info Enclosed (Bloody
Viking)
Re: Linux for ex-Windows users (long story) (Terry Porter)
Re: Which distro for server?? (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Corel Linux Office 2000 and Win32 Emulator Making Progress (Bloody Viking)
Re: 2000: Hammer blows to the Micro$oft machine! (Bloody Viking)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roger <roger@.>
Crossposted-To: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: From the Horse's Mouth
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 04:09:10 GMT
On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:15:53 -0400, someone claiming to be T. Max
Devlin wrote:
>Quoting doc rogers from alt.destroy.microsoft; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:43:37 -0500
>>As for T. Max's vehemence about installing Win95 on Gateway 2600's, you make
>>you mind up about that. One mention could be excused as a typo, but . .
>Another might be I don't remember nor care a whit about model numbers, and am
>more interested in substantive debate than quibbling about details.
Yes, those pesky little facts are always getting in Max's way...
>>Note from doc:
>>
>>Note that OS installation is done here. The text below is for configuring
>>various other elements.
>Note from Max: The software has been copied to the hard drive, but the system
>is in an entirely unusable state as concerns video, network support, and many
>other parts of the computer.
So, the standard VGA driver on this mythical laptop results in a
completely blank screen?
What other parts are completely inoperable?
> [... multiple procedures which are far LONGER and MORE COMPLEX than Norm's
>nightmare to begin with...]
>I suppose if your intent is to sling mud (i.e.. ad hominem attack) simply by
>pointing out minor discrepancies, instead of substantive discussion on the
>issues discussed here, you may well consider showing Gateway's current 2300
>install is different than the one Norm (or the one I used on my Gateway
>laptop, regardless of model numbers or hardware revs) got an indeterminate
>time in the past (and when a 2300 had an indeterminate similarity to the one
>Gateway is currently providing a standard install procedure for). However, I
>believe the fact that your posted procedure is much WORSE than Norm's, and
>quite frankly shocks me (they didn't have any standard install procedure, just
>an installation troubleshooting process, when I had my difficulties in 1997)
>with both its extent and its intricacy, should put to rest any claims that you
>are concerned with the issues involved, and are far more interested in
>character assassination (i.e.. ad hominem attack).
Hello, Kettle? This is Pot. You're black...
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Linux for a web developer
Date: 13 Apr 2000 00:10:57 -0400
On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:38:36 +0200, Davorin Mestric wrote:
>Salvador Peralta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I have no complaints with win32, but there are some strong arguments for
>> having your development environment on linux. For one thing, learning
>> linux will help you more quickly familiarize yourself with a whole suite
>> of tools that are not freely available or well-supported on windows.
>
>
>like what?
I guess the point is that if you're developing for UNIX, then UNIX is probably
a better development platform. You can run perl, Apache and some other stuff
on NT, but why bother ? Half of the perl functions you want to use will
not work. Apache will not work the same way ( maybe not all the modules
will work for example ). Most of the stuff doesn't ship with Windows. Linux
gives you a UNIX web devlopment environment OOTB, while to get a UNIX webdev
environment under Windows, you need to dress it up as UNIX.
OOTH, if you're developing for an NT web server, by all means go out
and get visual studio !
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: Roger <roger@.>
Crossposted-To: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: From the Horse's Mouth
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 04:13:17 GMT
On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:32:15 -0400, someone claiming to be T. Max
Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Quoting Roger from alt.destroy.microsoft; Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:04:16 GMT
>>On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:43:37 -0500, someone claiming to be doc rogers
>>wrote:
>>>Below is the response I received from Gateway's techs.
>>Our regular viewers may not be, but * I * am surprized. Wrong for Max
>>is pretty much old hat, but * this * wrong is rare.
>It has been suggested that it is rather important to refrain from ad hominem
>attacks, Roger. Please speak with doc roger about your insistence on spewing
>personally derogatory comments.
In what way (using the definitions extant on Earth, not MaxWorld
<t.m.>) is pointing out your mistakes ad hominem?
>Just "how wrong" is changing one digit in a model number, and why on earth do
>you guys think it is at all important?
(Since you seem to need it explained)
Your continued insistence on a non-existent model calls your supposed
memories of * having * to jump through hoops to do the install (I
don't say you didn't jump, just that you didn't * have * to) into
question.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Vehical Comparisons
Date: 13 Apr 2000 00:17:52 -0400
On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:27:42 +0200, Davorin Mestric wrote:
>nice try.
>
>however, most of the people DON'T have problems when running windows that
>are not solvable.
I don't see how the frequent Win9x crashes I see are "solvable".
>most of the people that run linux DO have problems running and installing
>linux.
Installing can be difficult ( but then, not if you get it preloaded
*like windows* )
>linux apps crash more often.
Not my experience. YMMV. I guess if you run
some-random-freshmeat-app-0.0.0.1-alpha.tgz, you'll find linux apps
crash more often. I usually use TeX, slrn, Qt/egcs, pine, perl, and applixware
and I hardly ever have problems with this software. The dev tools in
question ( perl and Qt ) are well documented. The apps are reliable.
>i have yet to see someone that actually used source to fix some problem that
>he had with linux.
Try subscribing to a developers mailing list. Not all the devlopers are
"hard core" developers. Some just lurk to occasionaly patch things or
add small features.
> "you have source so you can fix your problem" is a myth.
No, it's not. You really do have the source, and given the skills, you
really can fix your problem. If you don't have the skills, the chances
are that someone else with the same problem as you does.
In any case, the developers tend to be very responsive to feedback from the
users.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Corel Linux Office 2000 and Win32 Emulator Making Progress
Date: 13 Apr 2000 00:20:06 -0400
On 12 Apr 2000 22:08:00 GMT, Mark S. Bilk wrote:
>Corel is contributing to the development of Wine, the win32
>emulator for Linux. This is a good thing, as it will allow
>a lot of Windows software to run under Linux directly, without
>needing any modification, nor a copy of Windows.
Not really. Binary compatibilty is extremely difficult to get right. At
best, they'll be able to compile on Linux, and it will make porting
easier.
I have mixed feelings about this. I would prefer that the apps were
developed cross platform ( using QT for example ) in the first place,
so that the apps really are using a native kit, instead of "Windows
ported to Linux".
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Linux for a web developer
Date: 13 Apr 2000 00:23:16 -0400
On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:18:26 -0400, Rich C wrote:
>That's why you have to test, test, test. Every browser renders pages
>diferently,
>and each browser renders pages differently at different resolutions and
>color depths.
This is why it's a good idea to stick with logical markup where possible
( something which the "WYSIWYG" tools discourage ). This way, you need
only check that your style sheet works "as advertised" on all browsers,
and you don't need to check how every single physical tag gets rendered.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: Roger <roger@.>
Crossposted-To: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: From the Horse's Mouth
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 04:25:02 GMT
On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:14:56 -0400, someone claiming to be T. Max
Devlin wrote:
>Quoting Roger from alt.destroy.microsoft; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 17:53:37 GMT
>>On 23 Mar 2000 14:28:16 -0500, someone claiming to be Norman D. Megill
>>wrote:
>>>I did discover that Gateway now has a web page describing the 2300XL
>>>installation procedure:
>>>
>>> http://www.gateway.com/support/techdocs/portable/2300/30718.shtml
>>>
>>>You will see that it follows my procedure quite closely, including 10
>>>reboots during the whole process.
>>
>>9 -- 5 of which can be eliminated by rearranging the steps, or typing
>>a command rather than rebooting.
>This is incorrect information which I have addressed before.
With bald assertion, based on a supposed memory of installation on a
model that does not even exist.
Got any objective facts in support of this, or are we expected to
simply take you at your word?
>You are speaking from ignorance, I believe.
You misspelled "I wish" above. HTH
>Regardless of model number, I have had experience
>with these issues, and you self-professedly do not. Dumb luck or act of
>denial, why don't you excuse yourself from this "discussion".
Please point out where I professed any such?
When you show such willingness to invent facts to support your
argument, is it any wonder you get called on it?
>Oh, I see, because there wouldn't BE a discussion if you didn't keep trolling
>the same [mostly invalid] points!
Invalid because Max says so. Until he slips up and posts the same
advice which he has called invalid.
And then he wonders why there is doubt as to whether Max actually
reads or understands the posts to which he is responding...
>What is your point? You honestly think
>we've all mis-thought this, and just HAPPEN to be in agreement with an
>ostensibly large number of other customers, judges, and governments?
Umm, which judges or governments have had anything at all to say about
the reinstallation of Windows onto a Gateway notebook?
When you show such willingness to invent facts to support your
argument, is it any wonder you get called on it?
Or is this another case of Max getting confused and forgetting which
thread he is responding to?
>Well
>GIVE US SOME REASON TO THINK SO. So far, all you and your buddy doc have
>simply repeated "you may be wrong" a million times.
No, unlike you, we have made specific objections, supported those
objectives when asked to, and pointed out that you are once again
either sadly misinformed or actively distorting the facts.
>PLEASE don't make me use
>an exclamation point twice in one paragraph.
Heaven forfend!!
>Just tell us who the hell you are and why the hell we should care.
Which has exactly what to do with the reinstallation of Windows onto a
Gateway notebook?
------------------------------
From: Bloody Viking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Which distro for server??
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 04:24:25 GMT
Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Sorry, but cookies are the way servers handle personalized
: services. If it is a choice between service the way I want
: it and remaining anonymous, I'll take the former, thank you.
Here's a good question. Why would a given page need two cookies before
showing the page? Although there's legit uses for cookies (e.g.
login/password) cookies can contain some unsavoury properties for
eavesdropping. Occasionally, I come across a site that won't let you in
unless you take the cookie. Maybe the unsavoury cookies could be called
poison pills instead.
An annoying thing is that a lot of sites must leave blank cookies enabled
without using them at all but send them anyways. Only Netscrape and
Internet Exploiter are cookie-compliant while others blindly accept or nag
the user. Anyways, "personalised" sites could simply mean sites with
"targeted" banner adverts.
Also, web sites do have a log of who comes along. If they want to target
banners at you, let THEM waste their CPU cycles for the advertising. You
shouldn't have to waste your computer's resources for their profit.
Set your cookie directory to /dev/null where the cyanide-laced junk food
belongs.
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------------------------------
From: Bloody Viking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Running as administrator all the time Re: Linux Virus Info Enclosed
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 04:27:34 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Donal K. Fellows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: I just thought of a nice little analogy. Being administrator/root on
: a machine is like having the hood on the car open - great for when
: you're doing maintenance, but not so good when you're going to the
: mall, travelling to work, or driving upstate on vacation.
To improve the analogy, it's a plexiglas bonnet and you're driving on the
moon.
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Linux for ex-Windows users (long story)
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 13 Apr 2000 13:03:06 +0800
On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:15:02 GMT, Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>After years of experience with using software in
>the Windows-range, i decided to try Linux about a
>year and a half ago. I would like to take this
>opportunity to share my experiences since then.
>------
<snip of happy Linuc experiences>
>-----
>My final point is: I can't imagine those so-called
>"Wintrolls" who are all over the newsgroups having
>a lot of experience in using Linux at all. I don't
>think *anybody* could go back to Windows
>permanently after having used Linux for a while. I
>think all these people should try using Linux for,
>say, three to six months. After that they should
>come back and rant+rave about Linux here again as
>much as they want. If they still don't like it,
>they should at least be able to give better
>reasons for it. The more trolling they do then,
>the more we can improve on Linux.
>
Nice post Cihl :)
Some of the Wintrolls ("Heather/Steve/Keys88") have been here 2 years and more
and one has to wonder just what their motivation is ?
Me thinks they're paid trolls, cause no one can be that stupid, for that long.
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 1 week 3 days 18 hours 38 minutes
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Which distro for server??
Date: 13 Apr 2000 00:08:19 -0500
In article <ZZbJ4.5933$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Bloody Viking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>: Sorry, but cookies are the way servers handle personalized
>: services. If it is a choice between service the way I want
>: it and remaining anonymous, I'll take the former, thank you.
>
>Here's a good question. Why would a given page need two cookies before
>showing the page? Although there's legit uses for cookies (e.g.
>login/password) cookies can contain some unsavoury properties for
>eavesdropping. Occasionally, I come across a site that won't let you in
>unless you take the cookie. Maybe the unsavoury cookies could be called
>poison pills instead.
Some sites have 'first-time-visitor' screens or pop-ups that
are only only shown if you don't have the cookie. Others
are using 'session' variable concepts on the server that
don't mesh well with http's normally stateless concepts.
>An annoying thing is that a lot of sites must leave blank cookies enabled
>without using them at all but send them anyways.
And why does this annoy you?
>Only Netscrape and
>Internet Exploiter are cookie-compliant while others blindly accept or nag
>the user.
Oh I see, you mean those are the ones that annoy you instead of
always handling the cookie transparently.
>Anyways, "personalised" sites could simply mean sites with
>"targeted" banner adverts.
Or any other thing that might need state information.
>Also, web sites do have a log of who comes along. If they want to target
>banners at you, let THEM waste their CPU cycles for the advertising. You
>shouldn't have to waste your computer's resources for their profit.
Why do you want to see advertising for things you don't want?
>Set your cookie directory to /dev/null where the cyanide-laced junk food
>belongs.
Or don't visit sites where you don't want to be tracked, if that
is what really bothers you.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Bloody Viking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Corel Linux Office 2000 and Win32 Emulator Making Progress
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:18:54 GMT
In alt.destroy.microsoft Itchy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Wine is a joke... It is always and will always be behind Windows and
: no matter how hard the programmers work it will still be behind.
And of course, Wine will always be behind the real thing as once the
Winemakers come close, Microsoft will move the MS-Goalposts(tm). And don't
forget the API calls in Windows itself come complete with undocumented
features. (known as bugs)
I will agree with you that Wine will never be a match to Windows. Also,
Wine doesn't solve the pesky .DLL overwrite fun and games whereby adding
an app overwrites a .DLL and an earlier app loses some .DLL call and of
course crashes. So, you have to hit ALT-F2 and login as root to type in
"shutdown -r now".
My solution is to not fuck with Windows anything in the first place.
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------------------------------
From: Bloody Viking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 2000: Hammer blows to the Micro$oft machine!
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:37:44 GMT
In alt.destroy.microsoft Bob Lyday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: The only way SW companies know how to compete is to break each
: other's products. I am not sure what to do about file format
: madness. I think perhaps the open-source crowd should produce a
: great Office package and give it away. Maybe that will stop
: it. Anyway, the government could then require that any major
: commercial Office package out there must include the option to
: save (well) in the open-source format. If the SW makers do not
: go along, perhaps they could be forbidden to sell the product in
: the U.S. until they comply, or, less drastically, they could not
: sell to the federal government until they comply. I think some
: good regulation is what this industry needs. The free market
: model has almost ruined computing. Look what it begat -- the
: Microsoft Monster...oh, boy!
We do need an ANSI or some other standard that is a standard for the
formatting madness. You are right. Software companies can compete only by
sabotaging each others' products, whether by file formats, .DLL overrites,
or Bill knows what. How Microsoft is so unstoppable as the OS trumps the
apps. Since only Microsoft knows what lurks in the API and the system
.DLLs, they have the last word. Apart from Microsoft itself, we have a
case like the "tragedy of the commons" whereby you make the mistake of
using a Compuserv CD and winsock.dll is overwritten so the normal web
connection to a local ISP is busted.
And so it goes with all manner of apps, overwriting the .DLLs, sabotaging
each other. This frustration, besides the file format bullshit is why I
gave up on Windows altogether, preferring CLI-only Linux. Windows really
ruined me toward GUI anything.
--
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