Linux-Advocacy Digest #102, Volume #30 Tue, 7 Nov 00 12:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: so REALLY, what's the matter with Microsoft? ("Chad Myers")
Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar ("Chad Myers")
Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar ("Chad Myers")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Chad Myers")
Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar (Craig Kelley)
Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar (Craig Kelley)
Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum (Roberto Teixeira)
Re: Lets try serious advocacy/discussion. (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: so REALLY, what's the matter with Microsoft?
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:06:10 GMT
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:0ZPN5.6830$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8u8fam$lsm$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Nope, it was designed on MIPS R3xxx based systems from DEC. There are
> > > several quotes from Dave Cutler about how they wanted to design it on
> MIPS
> > > and port it to x86 as a test of the cross platform capabilities.
> > >
> > > Also, there was never an i860/i960 port.
> >
> > Not so much a port, as an initial development platform. I'm sure I read
> > that somewhere in "Inside Windows NT"....
> >
> > Ah, here we go, from http://www.ultranet.com/~trident/winnt/features.htm:
>
> Hmm.. a fairly good summary actually.
>
> > I realise that reference is somewhat less than totally authorative, but
> I'm
> > _sure_ it's also somewhere in "Inside Windows NT".
> >
> > The first released versions were for MIPS and x86, IIRC, and all versions
> > were developed pretty much simultaneously.
>
> DEC used to run ads that basically said (paraphrasing) "You should buy these
> to run NT because MS developed NT on these same machines". Now it may be
> true that some of the early prototype code ran on i860's, but I think all
> the major work was done on the DEC systems.
There was an interview on MS' site with Dave Cutler about how NT was
first brought about and such and Dave said that portability was always
top priority. To force themselves to ensure that they wouldn't be
x86 centric, they developed everything on the MIPS boxes.
Unfortunately I can't find the URL of the interview, but I'm sure some
serious searching should find it.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:09:56 GMT
"Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:BZLN5.123778$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:0uLN5.13437$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:PQKN5.123765$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > How does anybody get any work done with Linux? Do you have any time left
> > > after downloading all the security fixes, compiling them and installing
> > > them?
> >
> > First, since the linux distributions include so many programs, it often
> > turns out that you aren't running the one in question anyway.
>
> It seems to me, most have to do with standard services.
>
> >You'd
> > have to buy a whole store full of add-on products for the equivalent
> > under Windows.
>
> But most of those wouldn't be so insecure to allow root access.
>
>
> > Then for the cases where you do have to update,
> > the distributors all have packaged updates that install with a single
> > command,
>
> Most of the ones I've seen need multiple package installations like this
> one:
>
> http://www.suse.com/de/support/security/adv5_draht_glibc_txt.txt
>
> SPECIAL INSTALL INSTRUCTIONS:
> Note that the complete update consists of three (3) binary rpm
> packages and one source rpm package per distribution and platform.
> libc-*.rpm contains the static libraries, libd is the package for
> the profiling+debugging version of the libraries.
>
> If at all possible, keep your machine calm while you perform the
> update.
>
>
> Keep your machine calm?
You know, pet it, caress it, temporarily discontinue the use of
any FUFME devices (www.fufme.com)
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:11:24 GMT
"Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:yxNN5.123795$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "sfcybear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8u8411$mvk$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > In article <BZLN5.123778$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:0uLN5.13437$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > >
> > > > "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:PQKN5.123765$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > >
> > > > > How does anybody get any work done with Linux? Do you have any
> > time left
> > > > > after downloading all the security fixes, compiling them and
> > installing
> > > > > them?
> > > >
> > > > First, since the linux distributions include so many programs, it
> > often
> > > > turns out that you aren't running the one in question anyway.
> > >
> > > It seems to me, most have to do with standard services.
> > >
> > > >You'd
> > > > have to buy a whole store full of add-on products for the equivalent
> > > > under Windows.
> > >
> > > But most of those wouldn't be so insecure to allow root access.
> > >
> > > > Then for the cases where you do have to update,
> > > > the distributors all have packaged updates that install with a
> > single
> > > > command,
> > >
> > > Most of the ones I've seen need multiple package installations like
> > this
> > > one:
> > >
> > > http://www.suse.com/de/support/security/adv5_draht_glibc_txt.txt
> > >
> > > SPECIAL INSTALL INSTRUCTIONS:
> > > Note that the complete update consists of three (3) binary rpm
> > > packages and one source rpm package per distribution and platform.
> > > libc-*.rpm contains the static libraries, libd is the package for
> > > the profiling+debugging version of the libraries.
> > >
> > > If at all possible, keep your machine calm while you perform the
> > > update.
> > >
> > > Keep your machine calm?
> > >
> > > > and (unlike anything from MS) if it isn't the kernel you
> > > > don't even have to reboot.
> > >
> > > But you do have to keep your machine calm. :)
> > >
> > > > Most of the distributions include a tool
> > > > to automatically pick up the updates for you.
> > >
> > > But there are so many that allow root access. How do you keep up?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > but those poor Windows users have no idea what horors MS is
> > hiding
> > > from
> > > > > > them because MS does not publish it's bug list!
> > > > >
> > > > > It's called the knowledge base. It has all the issues. It's
> > searchable.
> > > >
> > > > How often has MS published something there before someone else
> > > > made it public?
> > >
> > > They try and post the fix when they publish the problem.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Come on bruce, let's compare... Were is MS's bug reports????
>
> It's called the knowledge base. Free to peruse anytime. Searchable.
Actually, it's easier to see a list of security bugs seperated
from other technical articles, bugs, tech suggestions, checklists, etc
by going to www.microsoft.com/security and then clicking on Bulletins
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:16:17 GMT
"Goldhammer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8u815l$kqt$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <YLKN5.123763$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > "Goldhammer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:8u7n4s$cum$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> > > If Access could squeeze oranges and press your shirts in
> > > the morning, you or Schuck will be claiming it has unmatched
> > > database development functionality.
> >
> > And a bunch of *nix using bozos would claim that mySQL squeezes
> > oranges better even though it wouldn't know what an orange was.
>
>
> If MS added juice-squeezing functionality to Access (they probably
> will, shortly before discontinuing the whole product), then
> a comment you are likely to hear from "*nix using bozos" would be:
>
> Access is a better juicer than MySQL, but MySQL is a better
> database management system.
Access is a better small-medium business end-to-end database management,
database application development, and database operating environment
than MySQL is. MySQL is a database, Access is a database and a database
front-end application all in one for small-medium businesses.
Comparing the two is apples and oranges because they target two completely
different audiences.
> >*nix users don't have anything close to the usability and
> >functionality of Access in combination with MSDE
> >(SQL Server runtime).
>
>
> 1. What is the largest database size allowed by MSDE?
2GB per database, I believe.
> 2. How many users does MS claim MSDE is "optimized" for?
MSDE is SQL Server 7.0 with a database size limitation. As many
as SQL Server can handle, so can MSDE.
>
>
> > As for:
>
>
> http://x54.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=690222620&CONTEXT=973560457
>
>
> >> Could anyone point me to some Windows-based program that would allow
> >> me to interact with an MS Access database via a regular command line
> >> interface? I want to be able to do things like SELECTs, UPDATEs etc.
> >> without having to use the mouse or drag & drop columns. The SQL view
> >> in Access isn't what I'm looking for. What I'd like is more like SQL+
> >> for Oracle or MySQL's standard interface.
> >
> > Why not? The SQL view is even more powerful than SQL+.
>
>
> The author of the above quote didn't think so.
You don't have to drag and drop in access to form a query. You can
switch to SQL view and type it all in manually.
For people who don't know SQL or whose wrists ache from typing in
line after line of SQL, there is the drag-and-drop functionality.
Of course, anyone with this much knowledge of SQL would probably
be using MSDE, SQL Server 7, Oracle or MySQL anyhow, so that comment
is irrelevant.
-Chad
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 07 Nov 2000 08:40:01 -0700
"Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:0uLN5.13437$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:PQKN5.123765$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > How does anybody get any work done with Linux? Do you have any time left
> > > after downloading all the security fixes, compiling them and installing
> > > them?
> >
> > First, since the linux distributions include so many programs, it often
> > turns out that you aren't running the one in question anyway.
>
> It seems to me, most have to do with standard services.
>
> >You'd
> > have to buy a whole store full of add-on products for the equivalent
> > under Windows.
>
> But most of those wouldn't be so insecure to allow root access.
Under Windows NT? I beg to differ. Most services run as the SYSTEM
user, which is more privileged than Administrator.
> > Then for the cases where you do have to update,
> > the distributors all have packaged updates that install with a single
> > command,
>
> Most of the ones I've seen need multiple package installations like this
> one:
>
> http://www.suse.com/de/support/security/adv5_draht_glibc_txt.txt
Hence dependency checking and automatic resolution. Any decent Linux
distribution will automatically:
o download the dependency
o ask if you want to install the dependency
o recursivly get any other dependencies needed
Wheras under Windows most updates/applications just include the
library flavor of the day with their setup and happily write over what
is already installed (hence the lame Windows 2000 "auto heal"
features; talk about treating the symptoms rather than the problem...).
> SPECIAL INSTALL INSTRUCTIONS:
> Note that the complete update consists of three (3) binary rpm
> packages and one source rpm package per distribution and platform.
> libc-*.rpm contains the static libraries, libd is the package for
> the profiling+debugging version of the libraries.
>
> If at all possible, keep your machine calm while you perform the
> update.
>
> Keep your machine calm?
I have no idea what they are talking about. A proper libc upgrade
keeps the old one around, installs the new one, runs ldconfig and then
erases the old one.
> > and (unlike anything from MS) if it isn't the kernel you
> > don't even have to reboot.
>
> But you do have to keep your machine calm. :)
:)
> > Most of the distributions include a tool
> > to automatically pick up the updates for you.
>
> But there are so many that allow root access. How do you keep up?
The same way you do with Windows. NT4 had 6 service packs, each
containing hundreds of "hotfixes". I remember circa NT4sp3 we had to
apply service pack 3 and then apply an iadminfix hotpack collection to
secure the MSJVM (this is on every m machine installed accross a wide
variety of hardware). At least under Linux you can create/download an
up-to-date install CD that already has the latest packages installed;
or remotely upgrade them to the latest service level like this:
rpm -Fvh *
Not very difficult at all; especially when compared to the Windows NT
way of doing it.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 07 Nov 2000 08:43:55 -0700
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Actually, it's easier to see a list of security bugs seperated
> from other technical articles, bugs, tech suggestions, checklists, etc
> by going to www.microsoft.com/security and then clicking on Bulletins
And then you can skip the articles about Barney playing peek-a-boo:
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/ARTICLES/Q172/6/53.asp
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: Roberto Teixeira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum
Date: 07 Nov 2000 14:18:32 -0500
>>>>> "CM" == Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
CM> Is ReiserFS released yet?
CM> Has it been thoroughly tested? IIRC, it's still an outsider
CM> and hasn't been fully included in the major distributions
CM> (although SuSE has it? I remember hearing one of them did
CM> now).
Conectiva Linux has it.
CM> Has it been thoroughly tested in an enterprise environment or
CM> a high-traffic database environment (where +2GB files would be
CM> most important)?
It has been used in many enterprise environments around here with
mixed results. In some environments it has been a huge success while
proving to be unstable in others.
--
Roberto Teixeira
Conectiva, Inc.
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Lets try serious advocacy/discussion.
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 16:10:06 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
spicerun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> mlw wrote:
>
> > Let's avoid getting into a pissing war about applications. Lets talk
> > about real serious (technical) limitations or problems with Linux.
This sounds like a loaded question, like an attempt by wintrolls to
focus attention on Linux weak points.
> > What can Windows or Win2K do that Linux can not?
The biggest strength of Windows is that Microsoft has worked very
hard to make their entire system easy to learn. This has led Microsoft
to take the position that there should only be one way to do anything.
There should be only one window manager, one word processor, one
text editor, one spreadsheet, one drawing tool. Furthermore,
the assumption is that Windows users will only be exchanging
content with other windows users, using the same versions (latest)
of the same (Microsoft) software.
The strength of this approach is that it keeps everything very simple.
A Windows powered PC has become a ubiquitous commodity. In fact,
Microsoft has actually reached a point where users aren't particularly
worried about upgrading.
Microsoft's biggest strength is that it has used exclusive contracts
with the OEMs which required the installation of Microsoft Windows
on every PC sold. In recent years, OEMs were required to purchase
MORE licenses than PCs sold. Until the first of October 2000, OEMs
pretty much had to install Windows in each machine. Furthermore,
they couldn't install Linux in the same machines (dual boot). Users
frequently install dual-boot systems so that they can run applications
that are only available on windows, but they can also run Linux.
Microsoft also has the advantage in terms of shrink-wrapped
big-pricetag royalty based applications. When you walk into
CompUSA, you can view your choice of about 1000 software packages
that range in price from $50 for video games to $700 (and up) for
Microsoft Applications.
What exactly are they paying for? They're paying for advertizing,
inventory, shipping, wrapping, packaging, and the availability of
each package "ala carte". In many cases, the support and service
is actually not that great. The standard answers are restart the
app, reboot the system, reinstall the app, reinstall Windows, reformat
the drive and start over.
Linux lacks the market share to justify the $1 million per product
flooring charges required to stock the product. They also lack the
multibillion dollar advertising budgets as well.
In exchange, you have a competitive market for service, consulting,
and support. Corporate customers can choose support from IBM, Dell,
VA Linux, Red Hat, Caldera, SuSE, or a number of consulting and
support contractors.
> Who in this newsgroup (excluding Wintrolls) cares about Windows or
> Win2K?
There are roughly 600 million PCs that run some version of 32 bit
Windows (NT, 95,98,ME,2000). There are another 400 million machines
that were sold with the ability to run Windows 3.1 (80386, 80486,
Pentium I) that could run Linux. There may be as many as 200 million
left.
There's a pretty good possibility that most of these machines have
been used by more than one person (family, classrooms, visiting
friends, demonstrations...).
This means that Microsoft has reached a potential market of 1 billion
people. This potential exists globally. The U.S. market also has the
potential of increasing the number of computers per user (laptop,
servers, appliances...).
Linux advocates must be able to communicate with this market to reach
the full potential of both the established Microsoft market and the
emerging market of new computer owners (kids, teens, low-income, latin,
asian, and indian).
> > What can Linux do that Windows or Win2K can't?
To begin with, Microsoft has broken the Workstation and Server
functionality into to separate packages. Linux brings the best
of both worlds to both platforms. This enables the use of desktop
software on "servers", and the use of servers such as web servers
as desktop user interfaces. In fact, many Linux applications are
simply web applications running both the client process (browser)
and (web) server process on the same box. This makes it very
easy to share information. The transition from Linux workstation
to web publishing is often trivial.
Windows also offers most products ala carte.
Linux offers a comprehensive set of packages, nearly 2000 currently,
with each package contaning up to 200 applications. Many of these
applications are invisible to the casual user since they are hidden
behind GUI veneers.
This separation of the GUI and core application extends the usability
in a number of ways. Several different GUI interfaces may be available
to the same application. For example e-mail could be implemented as a
KDE application, a Python application, a Java Applet, or as a CPAN/Web
application.
The other important feature of separating the GUI from the application
is that it becomes much easier to create batch or script configurations
that assure consistent configurations, back-up/recovery, and automated
execution such as cron jobs. Furthermore commands can be initiated
remotely. This makes it possible to lock the Linux machine in a closet.
In some cases, you can use more basic workstations with small local
drives that can be connected to more powerful servers.
The modular design also makes it possible to transparently add
encryption, security, and work-flow modules without altering the
core applications.
> > Why isn't Linux suitable for the desktop?
This assumes that Linux isn't suitable for the desktop.
Linux does take longer to learn. A new Linux user should plan on
spending at least 20 hours/week for 3 months (13 weeks) playing with
all the different bells, whistles, and toys. The GUI applications
can be picked up in a few days, the subtle power of scripting in
PERL can take a week or two, and mastering the numerous application
programs can take months (about 10-40 minutes per application).
Linux is much easier to learn initially if it is properly installed
by someone who knows what they are doing. Ideally, this would be
the OEM. It's much better to pay an experienced installer $200
than to spend 5-6 hours trying to fumble your way through an
unsupported installation. The biggest complaints about Linux
seem to come from users who download a free copy (possibly incomplete)
from the web, attempt to install it without knowing anything
about their current hardware configuration, and get upset when
every component doesn't com up correctly.
The second best alternative to a professional or OEM installation is
to use configuration settings provided by the OEM. In some cases,
you can get installation disks with all the scripts required to
properly configure video/X11, Sound, Modem, and SCSI cards.
> Why must Linux be compared to Windows or Win2K?
Since many Linux users are also UNIX users, and many are
considering the choice between Linux and UNIX for some
servers, this is a legitimate question.
> What can other Unices do that Linux can not?
Other UNIX variants such as BSD, AIX, HP_UX, TRUE-64, and Solaris
offer a few advantages over Linux. When run on their custom designed
hardware, they provide outstanding performance, even more reliability
than Linux 2.2 kernels, and can be scaled to rediculous sizes, as many
as 64 processors in a variant of SMP configurations.
Until recently, the OEMs didn't offer the premium service for Linux
that they offered on their proprietary UNIX platforms.
> What can Linux do that other Unices can't?
Most of the applications that come with a Linux distribution come
precompiled, preconfigured, and are included under the umbrella
support contracts. Most UNIX vendors offer these applications but
exclude them from the standard support contract. In some cases,
they offer additional support for an additional fee.
There are more commercial software packages available, especially for
Solaris which has the largest overall market share. FreeBSD also
enjoys proprietary software which includes proprietary extensions
to BSD Licensed software. Often to hide the "veneer", the original
BSD application is compiled and linked with the proprietary product.
This can be a slight benefit in terms of pure performance, but often
has a cost in terms of additional shared memory.
The combination of OEM support for the 2.4 kernel, along with the
support by OEM consulting and support organizations has improved
the picture for Linux quite a bit. Linux 2.2 was pretty comfortable
running several thousand concurrent processes which could translate
to several thousand concurrent user connections. Many OEMs are now
supporting Linux, especially 2.4 on their "Big Iron" UNIX machines
such as the S80, the S390, and the HP/9000 V series. Sun's approach
was to make the Linux code compliation as easy as possible. Most
users find that porting from Linux to Solaris E-10K is pretty trivial.
> Why isn't Linux ready for prime time (compared to the other Unices)?
Again, you're assuming that it isn't. Linux has found a number of
strong and substantial markets, especially in web server farms, where
each customer wants the control and flexibility of a dedicated system.
Linux is finding it's way into branch office environments, where
the ability to administer remotely is very attractive.
Linux is also finding it's way into "Appliances". The TiVo box is a
good example of Linux becoming invisible.
Linux-on-desktop is also a rapidly expanding market. The biggest two
barriers are lack of availability of OEM installed Linux on retailer
shelves (If you can't take it for a test drive, it's hard to make
an informed position), and lack of separately packaged 3rd party
applications.
Keep in mind that both of these are perception issues. The fact that
Mandrake Deluxe packs several thousand applications into 4 CD-ROMS
(SuSE uses 6 or one DVD), is lost on users who see hundreds of cubic
feet of 100 megabyte CD-ROMS (mostly pictures) in VHS size packages
while they see only one relatively light CD-ROM.
In fact, most people investigate Linux in the book-store rather
than in the computer store. One can buy Mandrake for $40 and
get 200-300 book titles that cover the various applications
(at $30-50 each). These book sales are still one of the best
indicators of Linux user activity.
--
Rex Ballard - VP I/T Architecture
Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 60 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 9%/month! (recalibrated 10/23/00)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 11:22:13 -0500
Bruce Schuck wrote:
>
> "Matt Kennel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:47:31 -0800, Bruce Schuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > :
> > :"Glenn McGregor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > :news:laIN5.639$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > :> Actually ctrl-Z is the SUB character, not EOF.
> > :>
> > :> I believe it was to be used for an indication of an alternate
> > :> character set, ie; substitute.
> > :>
> > :> The closest current EOF character in ASCII is FS, the file separator
> > :> character.
> > :
> > :Ctrl Z in VMS is Exit
> > :
> > :From the VMS EDT Manual:
> > :
> > :To exit from EDT, press CTRL-Z to return to line mode, if you are not
> > :already there. Then use one of the following commands to exit:
> > :
> > :EXIT
> > :Writes a new file with the same name as the input file, but with a
> > :higher version number, and returns you to the DCL prompt.
> > :
> > :QUIT
> > :Discards your changes and returns you to DCL command level.
> >
> > So, when you exit emacs, does it put a Control-X Control-C at the
> > end of the file?
>
> Don't know and don't care.
>
> But in this ref for VMS, ctrl/Z is described as "To end input"
>
> http://cc.uoregon.edu/policy/vmsref.html
>
> In Vax Mail Ctrl z ends input of messages.
So, you admit that Gates pirated from DEC.
Thank you.
>
> etc etc.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
http://directedfire.com/greatgungiveaway/directedfire.referrer.fcgi?2632
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
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