Linux-Advocacy Digest #260, Volume #26 Tue, 25 Apr 00 17:13:10 EDT
Contents:
Re: "Technical" vs. "Non-technical"... (was Re: Grasping perspective...) (Mike
Marion)
SeaDragon openly confesses he's an IDIOT (Was: Re: "Technical" vs.
"Non-technical"... (Perry Pip)
Re: "Technical" vs. "Non-technical"... (was Re: Grasping perspective...) (Mike
Marion)
Re: "Technical" vs. "Non-technical"... (was Re: Grasping perspective...) (Mike
Marion)
Re: on installing software on linux. a worst broken system. (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Factory pre-installed Linux. (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Huh? - Unix undermining competitors (JEDIDIAH)
Re: MS caught breaking web sites (Scott Zielinski)
Re: i cant blieve you people!! (R. Tang)
Re: i cant blieve you people!! (JoeX1029)
Re: Huh? - Unix undermining competitors (Tov Are Jacobsen)
Disabled lady needs Linux Corel ("ROSAPHILIA -->> cuz NYC Could BE BETTER!!")
Re: MS caught breaking web sites (Brian Langenberger)
Re: i cant blieve you people!! ("Bobby D. Bryant")
Re: RH linux stable?? ("Bobby D. Bryant")
Re: Beer Tosser a Sabre Fan? Nope. ("Icehot")
Re: Where is PostScript support?? (Stephen Cornell)
Re: Where is PostScript support?? (Stephen Cornell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "Technical" vs. "Non-technical"... (was Re: Grasping perspective...)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:15:38 GMT
s_Ea_DAag0n wrote:
> I am sorry that you do not believe me, but I can definitely assure
> you that I _have_ been cancel-botted for all of Usenet from posting to
> this newsgroup in the past. If I didn't change my address regularly,
> you wouldn't hear from me again, not because I gave up, but because I
> have been silenced. I am not claiming that it is a conspiracy against me,
> but clearly there are some LNUX shareholders who do not want one single
> bad word to get out lest they lose millions of dollars.
You get cancel-bot'd due to massive crossposts and such... not due to
conspirators who don't like what you have to say. If what you say were true,
we'd never see have the posts in COLA or COMNA, not to mention the hundreds of
other windows-centric groups.
> So now it has gone from being an extra product to being less robust and
> not as useful? How is it less robust? For starters, when the power goes
> out in my Windows client, all of the programs are still running on the
> server, and I simply need to re-connect. When using X, and the Linux
> client crashes, I lose all of the programs I was working on, and they
> go into thin air, and it is impossible to reconnect to them. Sure sounds
> to me like Terminal Server is more robust - certainly more fault
> tolerant. Less useful? Huh? Please explain.
Yes it [wts] is less tolerant.
First off, just logging into the machine takes a full GUI environment for every
user. That adds a lot more load to the server, which requires more hardware to
accomodate users. I can remote connect to a Unix box and only load it down with
the app itself, the only power needed to display graphical content is specific
to that app, not a whole X session again (unless the user is using an X-terminal
or something like Exceed, but those are crappy solutions IMO anyway). Also,
with X I can connect to a machine that's not running any X itself at all... it
doesn't need a graphic card or anything. With WTS, the machine has it's own GUI
running as well, eating up even more CPU, memory, etc.
Second, that GUI is tied into the kernel, which means a problem with the GUI is
a problem with the machine. I've had users have WTS sessions lock on them and
the only way to get them back their apps (some apps keep running in the bg and
they can't kill it) is to either kill their entire session, or kill the
offending app and have them log on again. With a remote connection to a unix
box, the user can often login again and kill the app themselves.
Regarding losing your apps on a remote box... never heard of nohup eh?
> Please provide __ONE__ __TECHNICAL__ reason why Terminal Server is less
> advanced than X.
Already mentioned above.
> A serial console is not remote capability. In any case there are tools
Gosh, then I guess everytime I've connected to a machine from home (instead of
driving in) and fixing it were all dreams eh? All it takes is a simple terminal
server for connectivity.
> available which allow you to connect a serial console to a Windows
> machine, to run a DOS session.
And that allows you to fix problems in/edit the registry? Perhaps allows you to
do a hard reset (not just a reboot) on the box if needed? I can do that on a
Sun easily (well, there's no registry of course).
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc.
"Administering a Linux server is no more difficult than properly running
Windows NT."
-- Infoworld, November 24, 1997
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: SeaDragon openly confesses he's an IDIOT (Was: Re: "Technical" vs.
"Non-technical"...
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:10:01 GMT
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 03:29:14 GMT, sea_Dragon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>
>
>I have been compiling and installing new Linux kernels for 6.5 years and
>know what I am doing.
>...
>since I run Linux I expect to have to reinstall several times per year,
If you have been using Linux for 6.5 years and you can't figure out how to
get your system so it doesn't need to be constantly reinstalled then you
are obviously a TOTAL FUCKING IDIOT!!!
------------------------------
From: Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "Technical" vs. "Non-technical"... (was Re: Grasping perspective...)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:20:18 GMT
s_Ea_DAag0n wrote:
> Then explain what happened? Suddenly my root filesystem becomes unreadble.
> Sounds like corruption to me. What is your interpretation?
Sounds like it wasn't unmounted cleanly and needed a simple fsck to me... hardly
a "corrupted" filesystem.
> A pretty good part of my job is developing the Linux kernel. Unfortunately,
> I am quite knolwedgeable about the Linux kernel.
Hmm, so you're a kernel developer eh? Why not devleop asynch I/O for it
yourself then?
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc.
Homer Simpson: "To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's
problems." -- Simpsons
------------------------------
From: Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: "Technical" vs. "Non-technical"... (was Re: Grasping perspective...)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:26:27 GMT
s_Ea_DAag0n wrote:
> Sure there are. Windows makes you create one when you install it.
As does almost every Linux distro installation.... or you can just boot off CD.
> No I couldn't have. I don't have a CD-ROM drive on that computer. Does Linux
> support netbooting yet or is it still stuck in the 1960's?
That's limited by the hardware, but yes, linux does support netbooting... I've
done it with Sparcs before.
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc.
"One World. One Web. One Program." -- Microsoft hype
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer" -- Nazi hype
(One people, one country, one leader)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: on installing software on linux. a worst broken system.
Date: 25 Apr 2000 14:23:22 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Stuart Krivis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>But you just told him he didn't know what he needed. You need to make
>>up your mind here Terry, you can't have it both ways. Now did he know
>>what he needed? Or did he not know what he needed?
>>
>>>>
>>>>>rpm -Uhv gnome-libs-1.0.58-1.i386.rpm
>>>>error: failed dependencies:
>>>> gtk+ >= 1.2.1 is needed by gnome-libs-1.0.58-1
>>>> libjpeg.so.62 is needed by gnome-libs-1.0.58-1
>>>Ditto.
>>
>>Seems to me that these are basic libraries that should have been
>>installed with 11 gig of SuSE "install everything" option .
>
>This is one place where debian's dselect and the *BSD ports system are much
>better. They handle the dependencies for you.
>
>I could envision a frontend for rpm that would keep track of what the sytem
>had, then look at what a new rpm requires, and finally, go out and grab the
>required stuff off the net. I bet someone could even make money off a thing
>like this by charging a subscription fee. It sure would save a lot of grief
>by avoiding "dependencies hell" is a RH-type system. :-)
But I thought the real problem here was the SuSE actually had
all of the necessary libraries, they just named the packages
containing them something different from what the RedHat built
RPMs expected. A tool that automatically grabs what it thinks
are the missing packages will do more harm than good here.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: Factory pre-installed Linux.
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:25:41 GMT
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:57:16 -0400, Joe Kiser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>mlw wrote:
[deletia]
>On normal booting, the user should *not* see the the console, or the
>Kernel's output. Instead, they should instantly see a graphic screen on
No, the user should still see the kernel output but also see
a message telling them not to panic. Caldera does something
like this.
>bootup, like MacOS. Maybe even little pictures telling you when a
>certain device driver has been loaded.
>
>> Here is a list of "pre-configured" apps that must be setup and ready to
>> function:
>>
>> Applix or StarOffice (Depending on the kind of deal you can get)
>
>No, a person who is just starting out with PCs needs a consistent GUI.
>Why should the arrows, dialog boxes, and menubars in Applix (Motif) look
>nothing like the rest of the OS (QT/KDE)? I dunno if StarOffice QT or
The look is irrelevant. It's the BEHAIVOR that matters.
In this respect, NO current GUI toolkit goes far enough
when it comes to enforcing standards. Each application
(like say, winamp) is free to do whatever it likes. The
fact that win32 might all look like each other doesn't
mean sh*t.
>some other toolkit, but the Office Suite should be consistant with the
>rest of KDE. Maybe KOffice will fit in nicely, when it's complete.
>
>> Netscape, of course. With Shockwave and RealAudio
>
>Again, we run into the issue of a consistent GUI. Konqueror-2 would be
>the safest browser since it is integrated with KDE, but Mozilla should
...except for the aforementioned plugins.
Being nice and pretty and consistent doesn't mean much if
relevant functionality is left out. WIMP by itself should
counteract the effects of minor quirks between apps.
>also be considered (when both are stable). Besides, Netscape is buggy
>and unstable.
I've had more problems with the K browsers actually.
>
>> KDE and/or Gnome (I prefer KDE)
>
>Definantly KDE-2 (when released). Gnome is still unstable, development
>is fragmented, and it's not as easy to use as KDE. I don't know what
Why? It's WIMP just like any other GUI.
>Gnome is all about, just some KDE people who hated QT's license, I
>guess.
>
>> AcrobatReader
>
>Or a KDE-compliant program that can read/search PDF files.
...more "we must all conform gibberish".
[deletia]
It has to be FUNCTIONAL first.
Then you can worry about your facist crusade.
--
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh? - Unix undermining competitors
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:27:10 GMT
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:29:17 +0100, Tov Are Jacobsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) skrev i
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>[...]
>> That leaves Unix with a stronghold that it can use to further undermine
>> competitors in other markets.
>
>Several competing vendors produce UNIX operating systems.
So?
--
|||
/ | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:34:39 -0400
From: Scott Zielinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.security,comp.os.ms-windows.networking.tcp-ip,alt.conspiracy.area51
Subject: Re: MS caught breaking web sites
Gary Connors wrote:
>
> in article [EMAIL PROTECTED], laugh at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on
> 4/16/00 1:07 AM:
>
> > Robert,
>
> > And with Linux growing to 35% of all servers and 10% of desktops this year
> > alone
> > (half of those being NT replacements), there won't be much of an audience
> > for any future releases of windows when and if they do make it out.
>
> If its a "NT replacement" is not on the desktop. In the real world, NT is
> not a desktop OS.
That's absolutly, completely, untrue. Ever hear of "NT Workstation?" If
that isn't a desktop OS....
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (R. Tang)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: i cant blieve you people!!
Date: 25 Apr 2000 19:22:25 GMT
In article <3905e24b$5$obot$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 04/25/2000 at 10:46 AM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kim A. Sommer) said:
>
>> I'm still surprised the MS stockholders haven't raised a fuss with the
>> board for not settling the case out of court. That seems to be a prime
>> example of not protecting the shareholders' interests. But then maybe
>> hypnotism really does work.
>
>> FWIW
>> Kim
>
>Despite the vast numbers of shares outstanding, insiders still have
>virtually absolute control over MS. It is generally accepted that a 5-10%
>stake in a company is sufficient to exert control.
Yup.
>Bill G alone has nearly
>40% with Allen another huge chunk.
Not quite. Gates had 15.3 percent as of last October; Allen had
5.1%, but has sold enough stock, I believe, to go below the magic 5%
level.
--
-Roger Tang, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL]
- http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html
-Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JoeX1029)
Subject: Re: i cant blieve you people!!
Date: 25 Apr 2000 19:53:14 GMT
We can't change the fact M$ is going down. Yes we are happy but I think you
missing what were happy about. We're (at least I am) that M$ is finally
getting what it deserves. We don't want the economy to crash with it. M$
going down gives the penguin more chance to become even more popular.
------------------------------
From: Tov Are Jacobsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Huh? - Unix undermining competitors
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:09:22 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) skrev i
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:29:17 +0100, Tov Are Jacobsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) skrev i
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>[...]
>>> That leaves Unix with a stronghold that it can use to further
>>> undermine competitors in other markets.
>>
>>Several competing vendors produce UNIX operating systems.
>
> So?
>
How can several UNIX operating systems from several vendors, running on a
wide variety of hardware become a stronghold that will undermine the
competition?
I don't see the menacing force at work here.
--
Tov Are Jacobsen
------------------------------
From: "ROSAPHILIA -->> cuz NYC Could BE BETTER!!" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.os.linux.corel,alt.linux,alt.fan.linux,sbay.linux,alt.os.linux.caldera,alt.os.linux.best
Subject: Disabled lady needs Linux Corel
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 04:05:57 -0400
i am disabled and poor on a fixed income.
if you have a spare, unopened copy of the full linux corel with word
processor and browser in it on diskette, not cd, could you please snail
me it?
i am sick of windowz and it killed my pc-266 and i cannot even recognize
my cd reader anymore either.
or if you know of a linux that is easier to install and has more useful
things for the web-surfer/web-page-maker/email-reader i would appreciate
it.
help me.
please? thanks for your patience and i can't wait till the break
b.gates. will computers become cheaper after the doj's decision? will
there be more choice? should i wait and if so for what kinda machine?
this is not a joke post.
------------------------------
From: Brian Langenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: MS caught breaking web sites
Date: 25 Apr 2000 20:19:22 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
:>"Cary O'Brien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
:>> Linux is *GREAT* for families with small children. My 6 and 9 year
:>> olds have no trouble at all typing their name and password into the
:>> xdm login box.
: ^^^
:>i feel sorry for these kids... no games, forced to type arcane commands in
:>mixed case and rewarded by having a non-crashing machine that faithfully
:>returns a constant stream of error messages. I'm sure they suddenly lite up
:>when they hit startx and suddenly discover they can actually use the
:>computer productively and easily.
: Drestin, weren't you recently trying to convince people you had actually
: installed and used Linux?
: I mean, the "into the xdm login box" might have gone over your head,
: but the subsequent
I'm not sure which is more offensive: that the childrens' intelligence
has been insulted for the sake of bashing an operating system or
the implication that allowing children access to anything not
user friendly is some form of bad parenting.
Heaven forbid that kids should be exposed to anything new and
different...
------------------------------
From: "Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: i cant blieve you people!!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:22:03 -0500
steve jobsniak wrote:
> i cant believe you peolpe... micorsoft is going down, taking the rest of
> the tech stocks down alogn with it, and you folks are
> *happy*!!! will you only be happy when the entire stock market
> crashess, taking the economy, your job, and preciuos apple with it???
I wouldn't say I was "happy" about the drop in MSFT per se, though at a
more abstract level I am "happy" that the grossly inflated tech stocks are
seeing an adjustment.
I have mixed feelings as to whether I should sympathize with those who lost
their @$$ on MSFT. I suspect that that group includes some of my family and
friends. On the other hand, everyone has known for a year that tech stocks
were overdue for an adjustment, and everyone has known for months that MS
was about to get spanked. People who were paying attention should have
gotten out before it hit.
Unfortunately, however much good the concept of buying shares was a few
centuries ago, the media hype nowadays has pretty much turned it into a
pyramid scheme. And the only way to protect yourself against pyramid
schemes is to refuse to play.
Frankly, I think the only people complaining on Usenet about what is going
on are (1) greedy-but-lazy types who thought a few shares of MSFT were a
sure ticket to richness, and (2) overpaid programmers who are afraid that
they will have to learn something besides VB if MS tanks.
Which category do you fit in?
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
------------------------------
From: "Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: RH linux stable??
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:31:07 -0500
matts wrote:
> I can almost hear
> Linux enthusiasts arguing against this, but regardless what they say,
> Linux is an immature desktop platform.
Immature is a relative term. I've been using Linux as my desktop platform
for two years, and I don't miss Windows a whit.
I kept a dual-boot system for a while, just so I could still play some games
I had bought during my Windows days, but I ended up deleting my Windows
partition about a year ago when I decided the disk space was worth more to
me than Windows itself was.
When you consider the going price per byte of disk space, you can figure out
just how much Windows and its "mature" desktop were worth to me.
YMMV.
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
------------------------------
From: "Icehot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Beer Tosser a Sabre Fan? Nope.
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:38:17 -0700
What distro of Linux? I'm going to get Mandrake PowerPack, I think.
--
--
Max Ivtchenko A.K.A. Dark_Angel5
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ# 20310828
http://cockpits.sim-arena.com -- The largest collection of flightsim
cockpits on the 'net!
(unless you show me a site that has a larger collection, of course)
--
"The Yo-Yo is very difficult to explain. It was first perfected by the
well-known
Chinese fighter pilot Yo-Yo Noritake. He also found it difficult to explain,
being quite devoid of English"
-Squadron Leader K.G. Holland, RAF
Fighter Pilot
P.C. Kilinskas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8e4v2c$ol4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <MPG.136f9f755d4e790d98972a@news>,
> Brad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >In article <iTiN4.4657$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> >> "Billy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> > On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:25:45 -0400, "JonnyCab®"
> >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >...figures. I never saw that it *did* go up. At least Bill Gates
took a
> >> > >$12 billion hit yesterday. <snicker>
> >> >
> >> > Why does everyone hate Bill gates and want him to fail? Maybe its
> >> > just me, but his products have made my life a lot easier......
> >>
> >> We could always take this into another NG, where I can reel off
hundreds of
> >> bugs and inconsistencies that make my life a lot harder... <g>
> >
> >And then of course you will list all of the completely bug-free software
> >that you use all of he time, right? Oh, I guess you just did.
>
> Hmmm... having had extensive experience with all 3 of these OSes, running
> them at least 5 days a week.
>
> Crashes over the last 5 years:
>
> Solaris: 1 crash
> Linux: 0 crashes
> Windows 95: 150+, you lose count after awhile.
>
> Bug free? Of course not, but as long as I can't see'em.... :) It's close
> enough.
>
> Seriously, though, it's the privacy issues that concern me more with
> Windows than anything else. Open source means they can't hide anything
> from you.
>
> [Sorry for the off-topic rant; followups directed to:
> comp.os.linux.advocacy]
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: Stephen Cornell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where is PostScript support??
Date: 25 Apr 2000 21:49:48 +0100
In
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell) writes:
> article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Stephen Cornell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >However, I still haven't found a satisfactory way of preparing decent
> >presentations. It is de rigueur to give conference talks on-line from
> >one's laptop. However, I simply haven't found an alternative that
> >compares to the ease of use, appearence, and speed of presentation my
> >colleagues enjoy with PowerPoint.
>
> Have you looked at Corel Presentations 9 from the Wordperfect
> 2000 suite? Their demo at Comdex seemed nice enough.
>
Is it worth it (anyone who's physically tried it care to comment)?
I've tried all the alternatives, and been disappointed, though I can
see how to put together a decent demo of each of them. Corel has the
added advantage of not being native - it relies on winelib.
--
Stephen Cornell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax +44-1223-336644
University of Cambridge, Zoology Department, Downing Street, CAMBRIDGE CB2 3EJ
------------------------------
From: Stephen Cornell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where is PostScript support??
Date: 25 Apr 2000 21:53:07 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) writes:
> "good looking" is not something I would ever use to describe Powerpoint.
Well, I guess you've either never tried the alternatives, or never
needed to give a persuasive, professional-looking presentation.
--
Stephen Cornell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax +44-1223-336644
University of Cambridge, Zoology Department, Downing Street, CAMBRIDGE CB2 3EJ
------------------------------
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