Linux-Advocacy Digest #495, Volume #26 Sun, 14 May 00 07:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Idiots and their capability to alter points of view [was Re: My question has still
not been...] (Grega Bremec)
Re: An honest attempt (Stein I. Krav)
Re: Who is "S"?? (Grega Bremec)
Re: Things Linux can't do! (abraxas)
Re: An honest attempt (abraxas)
Re: M$ and C2 (abraxas)
Re: QB 4.5 in Win 2000 (Geo)
Re: Things Linux can't do! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Dvorak calls Microsoft on 'innovation' (Gary Connors)
operating systems comparison web site (MerefBast)
Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software (Bob Germer)
Re: Help->Colourised Login (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: German Govt says Microsoft a security risk (Matthias Warkus)
Re: Here is the solution (The Ghost In The Machine)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Grega Bremec)
Subject: Idiots and their capability to alter points of view [was Re: My question has
still not been...]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 05:10:16 GMT
Could you hint me just what is wrong with you (or my followup for that
matter) that makes it so difficult for you to find elements of an
answer in?
On Wed, 03 May 2000 12:05:02 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
had somehow managed to commit the following:
>What kind of an idiotic answer is that?
>
>People want to share internet connections.
Oh really? And what kind of a wiseman are you to tell everybody what
way they want to do it in? If I wanted to share internet connections,
I'd darn well want to do it in a flexible fashion, just in case I:
- ever think of an upgrade (i.e. buy another box - or so I hear
that 98SE is dumbed down to only be able to handle two boxes,
and if one wants more, well, dig out your dough, John)
- change my hardware (Jedi already presented you with a rather
simple problem of having a cable modem instead of an analog or
ISDN one) - just how easy is it to set the shit up on a
configuration like that? Never tried, eh?
- ever get tired of clicking checkboxes like a moron everytime I
plug my laptop into a different environment
Besides, what is difficult about sticking these two lines somewhere
into rc.local:
/sbin/ipchains --flush
/sbin/ipchains -A forward -s <source-network> \
-d ! <source-network> -i ppp0 -j MASQ
Of course, it's difficult to UNDERSTAND at a first glance, but at
least I have an option of reading the manpage. Tell me, does Windows
provide a means for you to understand what's happening behind that
nifty dialog box? Is there a way for you to learn just what went wrong
if your box suddenly BSODs upon connecting?
<sarcasm>
(OK, I'll change it into "refuses to work the way you set it up", so
you won't be able to accuse me of digging out the old story)
</sarcasm>
>People want to share resources (printers).
Just how difficult is it to:
- point your browser at http://localhost:901/
- click a nifty icon saying "PRINTERS" (with capital letters and
it's even bearing an image of a printer just so that illiterate
people like spoiled-lazy-to-death-windows-users can find their
way around)
- type the name of a certain printer into a textbox and
- click "Create Printer"?
Wooo. Four steps. Mind you, my description of the procedure was FAR
more detailed than yours.
Ah, a point of pedantry: Jedi also reminded you about scanner sharing.
Was this just simply a lapsus linguae on your side or were you trying
to get yourself in trouble? I never heard of a functional equivalent
to saned and the host:device model for Windows.
Please elaborate on this in one of your further posts, will you? I
have a non-supported scanner somewhere at home and I'd hate to have
to stomp around the house everytime I want to scan something. Are you
saying Windows support some kind of a network scanning protocol?
>People want some kind of security protection.
No shit?
<stomach-muscle-tearing-fifteen-minute-laugh>
<wiping-tears-off-face>
So now you miss it?
It's actually quite surprising that an expert like yourself isn't
familiarized with this, but a VAST majority of Linux distributions
offer "security profiles" of one sort or another, and you won't find
a degree of granularity such as that of a UNIX system anywhere near a
Windows box. I never also heard of a UNIX box that could be nuked by
putting a simple piece of code such as this into a HTML page somewhere
on the internet:
<EMBED SRC="file://C:\AUX\AUX">
Yeah, just what ABOUT security? (btw., Microsoft say it's an ISSUE,
not a bug... the irony...)
>And people would like it to be simple to set up.
You find something to be simple to set up if there isn't much to type
into some editor of some kind.
I find something to be simple to set up if I'm not constrained by
someone's ideas of how I want to have something set up.
So what, we have different views of what is simple. No need to
salivate about it. Some odd human being might even find it simple if
they had to chant mantras at a box in order to have something done
instead of having to fix it themselves.
>You are saying that this is not an important set of items?
Not at all. I'm simply saying that I'm not using Windows because it
constrains me into a non-functional set of predefined options. On the
other hand, a UNIX machine does it beautifully for me, and I'm not
thinking of searching for a better OS as of time writing. Of certain
course, YMMV.
<snip>
My previous post obviously missed the entry point to your
comprehension completely and utterly. I suspect I overrated your
willingness to try to switch points of view for a minute or two. I
apologize to you for that.
--
Grega Bremec
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://gbsoftware.webjump.com/
------------------------------
Subject: Re: An honest attempt
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stein I. Krav)
Date: 14 May 2000 08:28:40 +1000
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas) writes:
>Welcome to *.advocacy.
Maybe you need a linux.flame or *.flame group? I thought the purpose here
was to help people, not flame them. Oh well I been mistaken before.
>-----yttrx
Sik (who have used Linux since 93 and never turned back, my first kernel
was 0.99)
Sik
--
'Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes
and weighs 30 tones, computers in the future by the year 2000 may
have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and weigh only 1.5 tons'
- Popular Mechanics, March 1949
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Grega Bremec)
Subject: Re: Who is "S"??
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 06:00:52 GMT
On Thu, 04 May 2000 14:59:37 GMT,
The Ghost In The Machine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
had somehow managed to commit the following:
<snip>
>
>>I've been taking a look at Perl
>>lately, and WOW! The darned thing looks like there's so much stuff
>>that's been added to it over the years. I've been reading about how
>>to embed Perl into C programs; I think there's some function calls
>>provided for that.
>
>Check out 'man perlcall', or its equivalent. I haven't tried this
>myself, but it looks simple enough, with the right include files.
>(It would be nice if they actually *mention* the include files,
>though.)
>
The Perl5 compiler (actually perl2c translator) is so beta, but one
can generate C/C++ wrappers using the ExtUtils package like this:
perl -MExtUtils::Embed -e <command>
where <command> is one of xsinit, ldopts, perl_inc, ccopts, etc.
Something like what the gtk-config script does. The perlembed
manpage also has some information on writing Makefiles and C
programs for/with embedded Perl scripts.
About the header files, they're EXTERN.h and perl.h, and they're
situated in "-I`perl -MExtUtils::Embed -e perl_inc`".
The only thing that actually sucks is that you get a 2Mb executable
from the classical "Hello world" C/Perl program, because the entire
Perl interpreter has to be statically embedded into the binary (at
least it used to be so in the ancient 5.005_xx versions I used,
apparently there have been some dlopen() difficulties when linking
against libperl.so or something).
I wonder if this could be handled in a bit more elegant manner without
having to sever through the core of the Perl gutter too much...
I don't like the OO features of Perl too much, though. They seem all
too vulnerable to me, because they're too open for misuse: basically,
perl objects are plain old hashes which have property and method
names as keys and code snippets as their value counterparts, and all
too often errors which would normally show up at compile time don't
until well into runtime. It can prove to be quite difficult to debug
sometimes.
IMO, Perl is a well thought-out design though, with some adolescence
implementation issues that will still have to be addressed. And the
shere power of its extensibility...
<snip>
Cheers,
--
Grega Bremec
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://gbsoftware.webjump.com/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: 14 May 2000 06:19:49 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Stephen S. Edwards II <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> *sigh* When are you Linvocates going to learn? You cannot
> enter anecdotal evidence as proof to a claim. How the hell
> do we know that you're not just contriving this stuff in
> order to look like you're a techie, when you really just
> work for the postal service, or something to that effect?
I actually got a bluescreen under my W2K install last night when
I tried (uneffectively) to start a winamp plug-in.
I cut the power halfway through the 512 meg memory dump, booted
into linux and I shall never, ever look back. I needed an excuse
to never have a surprise shutdown ever again. My next reboot
will be right after I compile a stable 2.4 kernel to handle a
USB mouse.
>> Microsoft products simply can't handle a LOAD!
> I see. Well, according to NetCraft.com:
> Microsoft-IIS is also being used by Compaq, Nasdaq, and The National
> Football League.
I happen to know that the NFL will be using something else very,
very soon. (ok, so its not linux, but its not windows either. :))
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: An honest attempt
Date: 14 May 2000 06:22:32 GMT
Stein I. Krav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas) writes:
>>Welcome to *.advocacy.
> Maybe you need a linux.flame or *.flame group? I thought the purpose here
> was to help people,
You thought incorrectly. The purpose here is to advocate linux. This
requisite has exactly nothing to do with helping people. Help occurs
at the discression of the poster in question, and is neither on nor off
topic in most cases.
>>-----yttrx
> Sik (who have used Linux since 93 and never turned back, my first kernel
> was 0.99)
I cant remember what year I started *seriously* using linux, but I do
remember it being MKLinux DR 2.0 on a powermac 7200/75. It kicked ass--
even if the install was hellish.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: M$ and C2
Date: 14 May 2000 06:23:22 GMT
Christopher Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As for C^3 applications, those tend to reflect embedded systems, and Linux
> is very probably not in widespread military use in such applications.
True, but it isnt entirely excluded either.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: Geo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.lang.basic
Subject: Re: QB 4.5 in Win 2000
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:40:58 -0700
Very CUTE, T. Max. Are you a high schooler? Propelled into the
supposed "high tech"? Bah, s**t
Crapola below by T Max so noted by ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Your non-listening is about the same. <guffaws>
Geo
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
> Quoting Geo from alt.destroy.microsoft; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:16:23 -0700
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >T. Max-
> >
> >May I ask why you are attacking Tom Hanlin so vehemently? Whatever your
> >views are don't seem to jell with any coherency. Tom's work was valuable
> >in the early days. I would hope you could show some appreciation if you
> >were "there" then.
>
> Unfortunately, without any direct insult to Tom intended, the qualities
> of a good programmer and a wise person are not as related as some might
> expect.
>
> >BTW looked at http://www.eltrax.com with some interest. Is this an IPO
> >to come?
>
If your represent your cohorts, Eltrax is doomed!
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: 14 May 2000 01:24:45 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Evan says...
>
>This is the second time you've claimed this. This computer is certainly
>"working," and it's running Windows 2000. How is it "lacking?"
When Unix people say 'working', they really mean flexible and
adjustable for their needs.
Unix provides you the tools, and let you use them as you needs
to meet many different needs.
windows is more rigid. redmond engineers decide what the best
way to do it, put a GUI on top of it, and give you that.
It is a difference in philopshy and design. For some pepole,
the windows way works for them, for other the Unix way
works better for them. For me, it is clear that the unix
way is more productive.
------------------------------
From: Gary Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dvorak calls Microsoft on 'innovation'
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 05:23:55 -0400
in article 8fl9lr$bvq$[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 5/14/00 12:22 AM:
>
> If this is the case why are there so many bugs in Linux compared to
> VMS? Have a look at the CERT advisories and count the number for Linux
> versus the number for Linux. You just do not seem to understand that
> the cathedral model consistently develops software which is
> substantially more reliable than software developed in the bazaar model.
This, I think, is an exaggeration. Despite the high reliability numbers
from the BSD's (free and open) and the extremely high security of OpenBSD, I
dont think a final conclusion can be made. Microsoft develops really
insecure and crashprone software regularly, yet Solaris and VMS are
unbelievable reliable (the latter I can personally attest to). There is a
point to be made that no OSS has yet to attain the quality of extremely high
end OS's (mainframes come to mind), but OSS, especially Linux, is still in
its infant stages. The model has it perks, but is limited by the quality of
its volunteer work force (which in general is quite high at this time).
The main problem I have with Linux, is it just feels like
"Work-in-progress". Sure its stable compared to MacOS and Windows, but it
very incomplete. It interface feels like its the lowest common denominator
of what its main user base wants. Everyone is appeased at the cost of
confusion and interface bloat. Choice can be a bad thing in UI design,
imagine if there were three ways to drive your car: You cab would be
cramped, and the first time you tried to drive it, you'd get frustrated and
go buy a different car.
Quite frankly I find IRIX to be FAR easier to use than Linux. Far easier.
Why, 1) limited UI options 2) finding my minimized apps doesnt require good
eyes (damn windows like taskbar in KDE and GNOME has got to go) 3) Switching
apps is instant (just mouse over), raising and lowering windows is a breeze.
Simple, Effective and doesnt get in the way.
Linux does NOT compare to the power of VMS (despite what your politics make
you want to beleive). I have NEVER seen a VMS box crash. NEVER. I know of
one VMS box that has been used Monday thru Friday for over 3 years without a
reboot. The best you will get out of Linux is 9-12 months, and from what I
heard most people get 6 or so months between reboots. Linux doesnt compare.
Linux doesnt even compare to other GNU OS's. The BSD's (free and open) have
Linux hands down in security and speed. Linux is nothing more than a
buzzword that got repeated so many times people standardized to it. Damn
shame I would LOVE to have OpenBSD as a desktop, but good luck getting a
decent selection of apps for home use to run on it or finding a usable
interface for home use for it.
Keep in mind, this is NOT a slam on OSS development model, its a slam on
Linux in particular. Linux is one of the WORST examples of OSS development.
It's more unstable than its sister software and less secure.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (MerefBast)
Subject: operating systems comparison web site
Date: 14 May 2000 09:40:15 GMT
The operating systems comparison web site at
<http://www.operatingsystems.net> was particularly popular among
LINUX fans — a lot of you used the charts and information for
both college classes and to justify the purchase of LINUX at your
places of business.
Because I don’t have credit cards, I had to rely on someone
else to register the domain name.
For a while that wasn't a problem — and more than 60,000 of
you LINUX fans used the operatingsystems.net web site.
Unfortunately, the previous location (a stolen copy of Windows
NT at Web Precision) is not a choice. I have paid for new server
space at a legally licensed UNIX server, but the person who
registered the domain name refuses to move change the DNS.
If you would like to see the operatingsystems.net back
on-line, please let <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
know that the site is needed and that there are a lot of people
who would like to have access to it again.
Please be polite. Thanks.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:39:44 GMT
On 05/13/2000 at 09:45 AM,
Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> MS e-mails prove the test was added to specificaly detect for and harm
> DR DOS.
> > MS tested for non MS-DOS period, not any specific brand.
> MS-DOS is a specific brand of DOS.
Absolutely. I wonder why the Wintrolls don't address the problem that IBM
had to issue a patch for PC-DOS which was jointly developed with MS-DOS to
enable Windows 3.1 to load on machines running PC-DOS.
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 13
MR/2 Ice 2.19 Registration Number 67
As the court closes in on M$, Lemmings are morphing to Ostrats!
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Help->Colourised Login
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:42:54 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Jackie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote on Sat, 13 May 2000 11:49:50 +0800 <8fij96$dp1$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Hi there, I know BLUE="$ESC[44;37m" and NORMAL="$ESC[40;37m". But how about
>the others, such as read, yellow....? Pls point me to the right doc.
>Thx in adv - Jackie mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Well, the table appears to be as follows, colorwise:
Foreground Background
Black 30 40
Red 31 41
Green 32 42
Yellow 33 43
Blue 34 44
Magenta 35 45
Cyan 36 46
White 37 47
You can also use codes 0 (reset), 1 (bold), code 4 (bright/underline),
code 5 (blink), and code 7 (reverse video). Note that the codes
are processed in order:
echo -e '\033[0;31;42;5m'
which is an aesthetically ugly display, but illustrates the concepts
fairly well.
Note that these also work on Xterms (except for the blink, which changes
to bold), for those so inclined -- at least on RedHat 6.0, anyway.
However, you may also want to check out the curses library.
Programming against the curses library allows one to attach
e.g. a WYSE 60 or ADM or other such serial terminal, and any
properly written program using the curses library would just
need to change the TERM environment variable, and away you go,
as opposed to rewriting all of the escape codes. (It's not clear
how well serial terminals will support all the colors, I'll admit,
and the curses library isn't exactly the easiest thing to
program with.)
Followups reset.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- we now return c.o.l.a. to its regularly scheduled
programming, which consists of screaming, ranting,
and raving about Linux and Windows :-)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: German Govt says Microsoft a security risk
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:28:04 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Sat, 13 May 2000 12:06:22 -0700...
...and Salvador Peralta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matthias Warkus wrote:
> >
> > The values and ideals held up by Scientology aren't exactly compliant
> > with the German constitution either.
>
> This is what I'm interested in. Most everything else in this discussion
> is a red herring. IMO, it's on-topic (if only tangentially) because
> many technology companies are funded, in part, by scientology, and many
> more use management principles that are consistent with scientology.
> Yes, even open source shops.
Tell me which ones so I can boycott them.
> So I ask again, what values and ideals are
> you referring to?
- Internally, Scientology isn't democratically organised.
- People who want to leave the "church" are often put under severe
pressure. There are cases of ex-members who have been terrorised for
months and years after they left.
- Scientology's official policies on anything regarding leadership or
collection of data on subaltern personnel are pretty fascist
- ...
This is what's on top of my brain, I've got no intention on wasting
valuable time to inform you for the sake of a point that's clear
anyway. You can ask the responsible German officials for further
information if you're interested. I'm sure they've got a web presence.
> WRT allowing your government to "protect you" from exposure to
> alternative points of view, Gods save us from such noblesse oblige. I
> don't think it's healthy.
Bullshit. Stop contorting the meaning of what I've said. The
government is not protecting *me* from anything, but protecting the
constitution from offenders.
And yes, it is very American to think that letting a criminal and
anticonstitutional organisation like Scientology act freely is just
"exposing the people to alternative points of view".
I've got no interest on continuing this conversation with someone as
naive as you.
mawa
--
Teaticket, Massachusetts | Tightwad, Missouri | Hot Coffee,
Sleepy Eye, Minnesota | Peculiar, Missouri | Mississippi
Dinkytown, Minnesota | Jerk Tail, Missouri |
-- U.S. placenames
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Here is the solution
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:59:49 GMT
Followups reset.
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, John Poltorak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote on 13 May 2000 10:17:04 GMT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>In <391bdcf3$2$yrgbherq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>>Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>>
>>
>>>That said, nobody has been able to provide the requested proof.
>>
>>
>>How much does gates pay you to be here ?
>>
>
>The really sad thing is, Erik actually *believes* that Microsoft is
>a squeaky clean company which doesn't have a dirty tricks dept.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by
utter stupidity." :-)
Or something like that.
That said ... it's clear that Microsoft wasn't exactly the
cleanest wheel on the car; the fact that they gave away IE
while improving it (indicating that someone was spending money
on engineering resources, as IE wasn't and still isn't open
source) [*] hurt Netscape fairly badly (although Netscape
didn't help itself, to be fair -- 4.7 is still somewhat
unreliable on HP-UX). I will admit that IE 5 is an excellent
browser -- on Windows NT, anyway. [+]
And the strange error message when running Win 3.1 on top
of DR-DOS, coupled with the even stranger encoding of
various parts of the code, illustrates this even more
readily.
None of these are of course proof (although intentionally
encrypted code is a fairly big piece of circumstantial evidence!)
that Microsoft intended to play dirty. But I certainly
wouldn't trust Microsoft any farther than I could throw them.
[.sigsnip]
[*] to be pedantic, open-sourced products still consume engineering
resource, although in this case it may be an engineer
on his own time, or perhaps a student, or simply an amateur
who loves to program and gets a good idea.
On the flip side, RedHat pays individuals to maintain and improve
open-source products, as I understand it. With a model like
that, they'll probably go out of business eventually :-), but
by that time the source will hopefully be so good that support
won't be needed. But we'll see; it is a unique model, to be sure.
[+] Interesting issues with Windows refresh, though. IE5 does
its thing elegantly and such with the Windows windows manager
code (wherever it is), but if one wants to run a Java
application such as Borland JBuilder, or even Netscape, the
contrast to handling refresh events is rather striking.
I'm not sure if this is because of insider knowledge of Windows
in IE5, or (more likely) sloppiness and/or external requirements
from other windowing systems in the case of Java and Netscape.
I also don't know how well IE handles resize events in the
Solaris port, although I suspect that it does the same thing
as it does on Windows; most X users won't notice the difference
as most X windows managers rubberband during resize (which means
the app only gets one ConfigureNotify event, as opposed to a lot
of ConfigureNotify events as the user moves the cursor around).
It's one of the few things Windows appears to do well.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
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