Linux-Advocacy Digest #739, Volume #26 Mon, 29 May 00 09:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Fun with Brain Dead Printers. (Graham Murray)
Re: Windows 2000 is finally stable.... (Nico Coetzee)
Re: QB 4.5 in Win 2000 (budgie)
Re: QB 4.5 in Win 2000 (budgie)
Re: how to enter a bug report against linux? ("Peter T. Breuer")
Re: linuxcare failure - more proof of how OSS fails (Friedrich Dominicus)
Re: Let's whine about wine (fjuy@op)
Re: OSWars 2000 at www.stardock.com (LMB)
Re: how to enter a bug report against linux? (Mark Wilden)
Re: democracy? (Mark Bratcher)
Re: Let's whine about wine (Martijn Bruns)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Graham Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware
Subject: Re: Fun with Brain Dead Printers.
Date: 29 May 2000 10:32:56 +0000
In comp.os.linux.hardware, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> No that is hat you are doing implying, by omission, your usual method,
> that a person can easily set up a printer under Linux but can't answer
> "ok" 4 times to do it under Windows.
Setting up a printer in Windows is not always that easy. A couple of
months ago we had a new network (ethernet) printer delivered at
work. Within 2 minutes of the printer going online I had printed a
test-print from my Linux workstation. It took about 10 minutes before
it was accessible from the NT workstations, but the workstations
running Windows 98 could not use it for another day. The reason - the
person installing the printer on the NT server just accepted the
defaults and this created a share name which contained a space. NT was
quite happy with this, but 98 would not grok it.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:48:15 +0200
From: Nico Coetzee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.lang.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.lang.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 is finally stable....
fungus wrote:
> Check it out:
>
> http://msdnnews.microsoft.com/default.asp?masterfolder=directx
>
> --
> <\___/>
> / O O \
> \_____/ FTB.
Q: Why wait so long? Does it really take several days to make a machine
stable? -Just Wondering...
--
==============
The following signature was created automatically under Linux:
.
Intolerance is the last defense of the insecure.
------------------------------
From: budgie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.lang.basic,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: QB 4.5 in Win 2000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:58:19 GMT
On Sun, 28 May 2000 23:06:22 -0400, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>>>>The biggest limitation of
>>>>Wintel systems is the designers' perceived need to maintain backward
>>>>compatibility.
>>I couldn't agree more, but the artificial 640K barrier was one of the
>>worst pieces of anticipation the Wintel industry has seen.
>
>That's almost redirection, there. The argument that the 640K barrier
>was a bad idea is scarcely support for the argument that the decision in
>the 80s to implement a bad idea (the Wintel system incompatibility which
>could be considered the root of most backward compatibility problems,
>namely the 640K barrier). It was apparently a Microsoft lack of
>anticipation.
That is what I said.
> A flat memory model could have been used, and was
>available in competing products (which didn't, alas, use per-processor
>licensing to secure a monopoly). While these would still have been
>limited by the original PC's 1Meg memory support, they wouldn't have
>imposed a barrier like DOS did when the 386 became available.
I think we all know that.
>>And its
>>limitation haunted us through LIM-EMS and extended memory managers.
>>(I still use some legacy apps which require EMS.)
>>Something that we could have done far better without.
>
>Apparently not in your case, eh? I don't know of anyone else who uses
>any apps which require EMS. What are they?
I could have done without that sort of headache, but because LIM-EMS
was all the flavour of the month (once) writers used that model
presumably in the expectation that it would last.
Yes, i have at least one app that requires EMS. It's for laying out
printed circuits, and when a board is 10" * 16" multilayer, you need
more than 640K and the app uses EMS. It's that simple.
>
> [...]
>>Again, I agree completely. But how do you ensure that the earlier
>>version can and will ignore future tags and tokens when they are
>>undefined at that stage?
>
>Well, that's the difference between a file *structure*, and a file
>*format*, and a document structure and format, as well, though that is
>something quite different. If the file structure allows, tags and
>tokens can have tags and tokens, which designate which functions in the
>software are necessary to interpret which tags and tokens. Admittedly,
>it can devolve to regression (since you have to be able to recognize the
>tags in order to recognize the tags, as it were),
which was what i was trying to point out
> but there's enough
>known about the document application to be able to define rather easily
>a structure which allows for unrecognized format. It's all just
>hexadecimal on the disk, you know.
Go on. Really? I would never have guessed ;-)
------------------------------
From: budgie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.lang.basic,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: QB 4.5 in Win 2000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 11:02:53 GMT
On Sun, 28 May 2000 23:10:08 -0400, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Quoting budgie from alt.destroy.microsoft; Mon, 29 May 2000 01:21:33 GMT
>>On Sun, 28 May 2000 10:18:27 -0400, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>wrote:
>>>Quoting budgie from alt.destroy.microsoft; Sun, 28 May 2000 11:23:06 GMT
>>>>On Sun, 28 May 2000 02:03:03 +0200, Giuliano Colla
>>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>(snip)
>>>>
>>>>>Don't make me laugh lad! Do you think that Epson Computers delivers
>>>>>faulty pre-installed systems? And so does Fujitsu-Siemens?
>>>>
>>>>Yes, fujitsu have and so have Compaq. But what does that prove?
>>>
>>>It proves its bugs in the software, not "a bad installation". Even if
>>>you suggest that it is "poor quality control, and hence the installer's
>>>responsibility, and hence a 'bad installation'", its merely
>>>misdirection. Mere quibbling about the definition of "bug" in order to
>>>insist that the statement "Microsoft software has severe bugs" has not
>>>been supported by the example given.
>>
>>The point made related to faulty pre-installed systems old man, so
>>don't try and stretch it into anything else.
>
>Cool, nobody ever called me "old man" before. I think I like it.
>Anyway, the points we're making relate to whether faulty pre-installed
>systems are different than a software bug or not. I think you may have
>come in late, sorry.
I may have. The assertion/question/challenge/query was:
..Do you think that Epson Computers delivers faulty pre-installed
.. systems? And so does Fujitsu-Siemens?
My reply was:
..Yes, fujitsu have and so have Compaq. But what does that prove?
>>These systems, once reinstalled as per instructions, ran the way they
>>should have. What does that prove? Only that people at Fujitsu and
>>Compaq make mistakes. How does that "prove it's bugs in software"?
>
>I believe it was replacing Office which proved it was bugs in the
>software, not re-installing it, but maybe I'm the one who came in late,
>eh?
Maybe :-)>
These systems i refferd to were reinstalled from the companion sources
as per the instructions, and the problems went away. As I commented,
this only proves that people can and do stuff up. No more, no less.
------------------------------
From: "Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: how to enter a bug report against linux?
Date: 28 May 2000 22:51:54 GMT
In comp.os.linux.misc h3$[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: In article <8gr1h3$ml0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Peter says...
:
:>: Well, you were an idiot actually. Nothing wrong with calling an
:>: idiot an idiot. Any one who claims a mailing list can act as a bug
:>: tracking software must be a very stupied person.
:>Or a very clever one. As in the entire collective power of the
:>university professors, elite software coders, and other interested
:>hackers worldwide who make up the kernel developers.
:
: There is a huge step to take from being a good programmer but with
: no organisational and software engineering skills, to being
: a good programmer with those additional skills.
:-). That's bluster and I hope you know it!
: Think engineering, not just coding. coding takes only about
: 15% of the resources and effort (even if that) on a large
: software project. The rest is specification, design, requirments,
: source control, bug tracking, test suites, regression testing, QA,
: maintainance, and many other tasks not related to coding.
Ask yourself WHY you think that's necessary. Think profoundly, because
a lot of very clever people have already considered it, and you are
going to have to produce a sophisticated rationale.
The issues you raise have validity for an organisation with limited
resources and a customer base to satisfy, plus costs to consider.
For example, it costs an organisation to have difficult to maintain
and poorly commented code because they have to pay people to maintain
it and those people may leave, and new individuals need time to come
up to speed, whilst the old maintainers become uncontacable.
To a large extent, linux does not have those constraints acting on it.
Consider that coders are not paid in money, but in kudos, for one thing.
Yes, their activities may make them money too, but in the first instance
the monetary cost of their effort is zero, so there is no financial
pressure to reduce it. In the second instance instance the primary
coders are subject to an evolutionary selection process that
ensures that their skill level is very very high, so the cost of
difficult code is relatively low. And so on. I won't even touch on
the economic implications of open source in itself.
In particular, I'd recommend you to think about the following: Linux
_is_ a success, despite the fact that it bucks your theoretical model
of what it should be like. Therefore I'd humbly suggest that your
theory is inapplicable or wrong (the fact is that the parameters of
the situation make it inapplicable).
Peter
------------------------------
From: Friedrich Dominicus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: linuxcare failure - more proof of how OSS fails
Date: 29 May 2000 13:05:29 +0200
"Boris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Redhatd, VALinux all were totally over-hyped. And people forget one
> > base thing, a firm just can survive while making profits. Amazon is
> > learning that the hard way too. And to the big shake out of hyped e-
> > whatever firms have begun. And that is really good news.
> Who uses that crap anyway (I mean Linux)? I've never seen any
business using linux.
I'm afraid than you're going through the worl with closed eyes. If
you are interested in PCs than you should know better.
Regards
Friedrich
------------------------------
From: fjuy@op
Subject: Re: Let's whine about wine
Date: 29 May 2000 04:08:03 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>
>So, I should move from Linux to Windows huh. Wine isn't really good enough
>for me, I'm afraid.
No forces you to move to linux. if windows does what you want,
stick with it.
for the one windows app I still need on linux, I use VMWare 2.0.
------------------------------
From: LMB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSWars 2000 at www.stardock.com
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:05:32 GMT
"David D. Huff Jr." wrote:
> Brad if you and Esther wrote a book I would buy it just so I could burn it.
Cut posts, you %$^&$%!
--
(i.r. tete)
------------------------------
From: Mark Wilden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: how to enter a bug report against linux?
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:18:24 +0100
"Peter T. Breuer" wrote:
>
> To a large extent, linux does not have those constraints acting on it
> [like having a customer base to satisfy! -MW]
> Consider that coders are not paid in money, but in kudos, for one thing.
> Yes, their activities may make them money too, but in the first instance
> the monetary cost of their effort is zero
I don't think this is quite accurate. No activity ever has a zero
monetary cost, because of its opportunity cost. In a typical
organisation, there will be lost monetary cost if two coders both fix
the same bug. In an OS organisation, there may be the cost that one of
those coders quits because he feels the opportunity cost is too high to
waste time duplicating effort.
Mind you, I have no idea whether that sort of thing actually happens
with Linux. It could be that the mailing list approach is sufficient to
prevent it. I'm just commenting on the 'zero cost' remark.
> In particular, I'd recommend you to think about the following: Linux
> _is_ a success
I don't think there's such a thing as an absolute success. It's all
relative. And despite the fact that Linux is very far from being an
absolute failure, it certainly hasn't yet met the goal (if it exists) of
being a mainstream OS, competing successfully with its lesser brethren.
The obvious answer to your comment is, yes, Linux is a success. But that
doesn't mean it couldn't be even more successful. You certainly couldn't
say that the Linux development model couldn't be improved, since any
development model can be improved.
The question is whether more formal bug-tracking would improve it--not
whether Linux is a success, and hence needs no improvements.
------------------------------
From: Mark Bratcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: democracy?
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 08:17:00 -0400
Loren Petrich wrote:
>
> In article <392eb767$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Francis Van Aeken <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Gerald Willmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
>
> >The results of these MS breakup polls (consistently 2/3 against) raise some
> >interesting questions about the implementation of democracy (in this case in
> >the USA).
>
> How many such people are familiar with the anti-Microsoft
> litigation and the issues at stake? Here are some possible reasons why
> many people may not be familiar with the issue:
>
> * It goes over their heads
> * They feel that they have better things to do than be interested in this issue
>
> But among people familiar with computer stuff, there is a big
> contingent that seriously dislikes M$. So one may be more likely to
> dislike M$ if one is familiar with it.
That's a very good point.
When I talk to my associates in the computer industry, I'd say nearly
all are in favor of some kind of corrective action against Microsoft.
However, of the people I know who are just very basic computer users,
not extremely computer literate, they think generally that Microsoft
should be left alone.
It is a knowledge and exposure issue. I attribute this difference in
opinion to the fact that the non-computer-literate crowd has nothing to
compare what they have to. They only know MS Windows (since that's what
ships on PCs) and so it is the best thing going, so don't want to mess
it up. The computer industry people have generally touched some other
form of OS, be it OS/2, Linux, Solaris, or whatever, or at least
understand the issues w.r.t. system crashes, and therefore know that MS
Windows is not their best choice, but almost required of them.
So a Microsoft monopoly is sort of like a totalitarian world contained
within our democratic republic. Microsoft doesn't want people to be
exposed to other OSes or they may come to realize how junky their stuff
is and what to choose something else. The availability of choices is
critical.
I think I just went careening off the subject.... sorry. :-)
--
Mark Bratcher
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=========================================================
Escape from Microsoft's proprietary tentacles: use Linux!
------------------------------
From: Martijn Bruns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Let's whine about wine
Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:25:52 +0200
Pete Goodwin schreef:
>
> I tried to use wine.
>
> The package says it creates a wine.ini. No it doesn't. Also, wine.conf is
> empty.
>
> Using the badly written documentation, I put together a wine.conf file.
> Then I tried:
>
> wine sol.exe
>
> Ah, file not found. OK, copy sol.exe to my /usr/local/wine/windows
> directory. Try again.
>
> Oh look, Solitaire is running on X!
>
> Ah, let's try something I've written. A 3D scene editor for POVray.
>
> wine model.exe
>
> fixme:ole:LoadTypeLibEx registration of typelibs not supported yet!
> fixme:ole:ITypeLib_fnRelease (0x40b673f0)->ref is 3: stub
> fixme:ole:ITypeLib_fnRelease (0x40b673f0)->ref is 4: stub
> fixme:ole:ITypeInfo_fnRelease (0x40b67558)->ref is 3: stub
> fixme:ole:RegisterTypeLib (0x40b673f0,"C:\\windows\\model.exe","C:\\windows
> \\"): stub
> fixme:ole:ITypeLib_fnRelease (0x40b673f0)->ref is 4: stub
> fixme:ole:ITypeLib_fnRelease (0x40b673f0)->ref is 4: stub
> fixme:ole:ITypeLib_fnRelease (0x40b673f0)->ref is 4: stub
> No handler for Win32 routine OLE32.173: CoResumeClassObjects (called from
> 0x4e9626)
>
> Oh well.
>
> Now let's try something else, a DirectSound application that handles 3D
> sound.
>
> wine d5sound.exe
>
> fixme:commctrl:InitializeFlatSB stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollInfo stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollInfo stub
> err:rebar:REBAR_WindowProc unknown msg be10 wp=079c0001 lp=0000079c
> err:rebar:REBAR_WindowProc unknown msg 0405 wp=00000000 lp=40b3f282
> err:toolbar:ToolbarWindowProc unknown msg be10 wp=083c0001 lp=0000083c
> err:toolbar:ToolbarWindowProc unknown msg b036 wp=40e6631c lp=00000001
> err:toolbar:ToolbarWindowProc unknown msg b036 wp=40e66604 lp=00000001
> err:toolbar:ToolbarWindowProc unknown msg b036 wp=40e66940 lp=00000001
> err:toolbar:ToolbarWindowProc unknown msg b036 wp=40e66c48 lp=00000001
> err:toolbar:ToolbarWindowProc unknown msg b036 wp=40e66ee8 lp=00000001
> err:toolbar:ToolbarWindowProc unknown msg be10 wp=083c0002 lp=0000083c
> err:rebar:REBAR_WindowProc unknown msg be10 wp=079c0002 lp=0000079c
> fixme:imagelist:ImageList_Read empty stub!
> fixme:imagelist:ImageList_Read Magic: 0x4c49
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollInfo stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollInfo stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollInfo stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollProp stub
> fixme:commctrl:FlatSB_SetScrollInfo stub
> fixme:dsound:IDirectSoundImpl_SetCooperativeLevel
> (0x40b67424,000005d8,2):stub
> No handler for Win32 routine DSOUND.6: DirectSoundCaptureCreate (called
> from 0x4718a8)
> err:dc:DCE_FreeWindowDCE [05d8] GetDC() without ReleaseDC()!
>
> Oh well.
>
> Finally, lets try a console application (this is a WIN32 command line
> application)
>
> wine povray31.exe
>
> This correctly displays the POVray usage text.
>
> So I tried
>
> wine "povray31.exe -isimple.pov -osimple.tga +v -w640 -h480"
>
> I got an error about file protection. Understandable.
>
> So, I should move from Linux to Windows huh. Wine isn't really good enough
> for me, I'm afraid.
>
> Pete
Yeah, Wine is crap the way it is now. It won't even run a simple
one like Girotel (a Dutch telebanking app) correctly. Textboxes
don't show correctly, not allowing me to succesfully enter my
password. It generally look like shit, because Wine obviously
tries to use my Windows color-settings, but doesn't succeed
entirely. It emits a strange error-message whenever i try to dial
into the Girotel-server with my modem (i'm pretty sure i
configured it correctly!)... And it IS, in my opinion, a very
simple app!
Some apps work, like Freecell, Minesweeper and Wordpad, but i
think that's about it. (I heard somebody say they got the
Office-apps to work on Wine, though. I haven't tried those)
Oh well, maybe in a couple of months it'll work. (If Microsoft
doesn't change anything in Windows ME) Girotel is the only reason
i still have to keep Windows around. I already contacted them,
and they won't even consider porting it to Linux. (Although they
DID port it to the Mac!)
------------------------------
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