Linux-Advocacy Digest #797, Volume #26 Wed, 31 May 00 21:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Rhinebeck HS LUG (Dave Rolfe)
Re: History revision 1.27a (was Re: There is only one innovation that matters...)
("Stephen S. Edwards II")
Re: Why We Should Be Nice To Windows Users -was- Neologism of the day (mathew)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (josco)
MacOS X: under the hood... (was Re: There is only one innovation that matters...)
("Stephen S. Edwards II")
Re: PLAN9 O/S - - Upcoming Linux Competition ? ? ? (Christopher Browne)
Re: Enemies of Linux are MS Lovers (Craig Perry)
Linux+Java, the best combination of techologies ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Enemies of Linux are MS Lovers (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Why We Should Be Nice To Windows Users -was- Neologism of the day (Thingfishhhh)
Re: Bob's Law (Marty)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dave Rolfe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Rhinebeck HS LUG
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:01:11 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You sound like quite an ambitious young person!
I am not a young person (I remember when virtual memory was a new
breakthrough technology) ... but the kids are. I am the so called "adult
leader". This means that I fatigue easily :-)
Dave
>
>
> Best of luck to you and your friends.
>
> Knowledge is power.
>
> On Wed, 31 May 2000 09:52:58 -0400, Dave Rolfe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi everybody!
> >I have taken the plunge and started a LUG at the local high school. We
> >have met a couple times and the kids are getting linux installed on
> >their home machines and we have linux running on a machine at school.
> >The guy that is responsible for computers at the school has been helpful
> >and given us a machine to work with at school.
> >Right now things are going along well and the kids are excited about
> >getting stuff working. Their eyes lit up when I started X for the first
> >time and the KDE came up. After we get our dialup networking running
> >(they are supposed to be working on this, this week) I guess I will go
> >over printers, postscript and ghostview. My big idea is to "aquire" a
> >couple more machines at the school and network them on an ethernet. Then
> >if I can get a modem and a phone line, we can dial up the cluster and
> >start some programming projects. These kids already have taken a course
> >in C++ and I thought we could install the MPICH and develop some
> >parallel apps (try doing that on windoze). I was wondering if anyone has
> >any other project ideas? Also I have not written much "windows" related
> >stuff and I also know that writting to X directly can be .... not so
> >much fun. I know there are a number of libraries one can use to pop
> >windows and turn on pixels .... any recommendations on which ones are
> >good?
> >
> >Thanks for any ideas,
> >
> >Dave Rolfe
> >
> >PS ... Anybody know of a job for a C language programmer with in depth
> >experience dealing with parallel systems, please send me a note.
------------------------------
From: "Stephen S. Edwards II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: Re: History revision 1.27a (was Re: There is only one innovation that
matters...)
Date: 1 Jun 2000 00:05:28 GMT
R. Tang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
: In article <8h38fi$hvg$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
: Stephen S. Edwards II <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: >Alan Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
: >: Microsoft lucked into the sweetheart deal of the century: it's
: >: verifiable fact. And you were aware that IBM only came to Microsoft in
: >: the first place because of family connections (Gates' mother on the same
: >: board as the president of IBM, or some such) aren't you?
: >
: >Huh? This is completely wrong. Bill's mother was a homemaker,
: And also the first woman to sit on the boards of directors for
: Seafirst Bank, Pacific Northwest Bell and a number of other corporations.
: (Her father, and Bill's grandfather, was a major banker in the Puget Sound
: area).
And do you have proof of this claim? My statements corroborate the
transcripts of "Triumph of the Nerds" documentary, so it's possible that
their information was dated at the time of Microsoft's inception.
: I'd do a bit more homework if I were you.
I would, if I cared at all.
--
.-----.
|[_] :| Stephen S. Edwards II | NetBSD: Free of hype and license.
| = :| "Artificial Intelligence -- The engineering of systems that
| | yield results such as, 'The answer is 6.7E23... I think.'"
|_..._| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: talk.bizarre,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mathew)
Subject: Re: Why We Should Be Nice To Windows Users -was- Neologism of the day
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:23:29 GMT
Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> had to have Windows to survive. And when asked why he has to have
> Windows, his sound mind comes up with this: "We have to have Windows
> because that's what everyone else uses."
This is known as the "Eat shit! Fifty billion flies can't be wrong!"
argument.
I say let the company move their critical infrastructure to NT, watch it
fall over several times a week, then say "I told you so".
mathew
------------------------------
From: josco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:30:39 -0700
On Wed, 31 May 2000, Daniel Johnson wrote:
> "josco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Wed, 31 May 2000, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> [snip]
> > > This is entirely contradictory. Your argument is that C++ makes coding
> > > easier, and thus requires fewer lines. Then you argue that Windows 2000
> > > wouldn't be as large as it is if it was C. Windows 2000 would be
> *FEWER*
> > > lines if it were written in C++, not the other way around.
> >
> > Maybe I'm writing to an idiot.
> >
> > A framework, say MFC, reduces the coding a programmer does but the
> > framework automatically generates code. So a C++ programing MS's tools
> > can be concise to the developer but produce thousands of lines of code.
>
> Most frameworks do not generate much code; they *contain* code, but you
> reuse it. If you count the lines of code in MFC once for each program that
> uses it, you are counting it too much. They are the same lines every time.
> Further, Erik was talking about C++; C++ is a language and as such
> does not 'automatically generate code' in any useful sense.
I'll be exact. A language is a specification. It isn't an implementation
so it does nothing and isn't expressed in code so it doesn't generate
anything. A compiler and a class library are tools that implement
languages and the use of these tools can reduce the programmers effort.
> (There
> are a few C++ compilers that emit C, which you then compile- but the
> lines of C produced is not an interesting metric, since you don't work
> with it yourself.)
That C++ can be translated into C was and still is meaningless as it's
suitability for use in an OS.
And I do work with code length as a metric. The understanding of how many
lines of code implement a service is a metric.
I've used C compilers that produce asssembler (DeSMET C). Fortran
compilers that produce C or C++. IBM's many language compilers produce
intermediate code which is run into a standard optimizer.
> I think what's going on here is that people are understanding "bigger"
> to mean both "more lines of code" and "more bytes of executable";
> these aren't the same thing.
Good point. Also...
The question was, "is C++ a reasonable lanaguge or a OS?" YES!
When MS faced competition the code base of frameworks was used as a
metric. Also the context of this is related to operating systems -
ActiveX was OCX was OLE.
http://www.ddj.com/articles/1994/9455/9455a/9455a.htm
According to Brockschmidt, "OLE2 is the first step in the evolution of
Windows from the function-call-based operating system we have today to an
object-oriented operating system in the future." At the moment, it looks
like the future object protocols will feel a lot like the present-day
APIs: workable, but large, inconsistent, and subject to change.
How many lines of code did it take to implement OLE control support in
MFC, in addition to the 20,000 lines that provide basic support in MFC
Version 2.5? (Probably less than 10,000 lines of code). Are OCX events
implemented via the IAdviseSink mechanism? (yes.)
http://www.ddj.com/articles/1994/9416/9416a/9416a.htm
As app frameworks matured, they increased in functionality and size. For
example, MFC grew from about 25,000 lines of C++ in Version 1, to 55,000
lines in the next release, to almost 80,000 in Version 2.5, with more to
come. This dramatic increase in complexity has led to a more careful
reevaluation of the interface between the generic container and the
application-specific component. The idea is to insulate the developer from
having to understand a large body of code, and focus more on the protocols
that govern the interaction between component and generic container. The
result has been a redesign of the app framework as we know it.
------------------------------
From: "Stephen S. Edwards II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy
Subject: MacOS X: under the hood... (was Re: There is only one innovation that
matters...)
Date: 1 Jun 2000 00:28:28 GMT
ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
: In article <8gv4el$r9a$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Piers B."
: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: > You ignoramus,
: >
: > Who do you think helped IBM and Apple in the eighties ( re 80's for
: > those who have literacy problems)???? IBM and Apple wouldn't have
: > been the companies they were if it wasn't for Microsoft.
: IBM could have found another company to provide DOS. Microsoft was but
: one of many companies producing productivity software for the Mac.
Who? What other operating systems could they had chosen from?
: > Not to
: > mention at how IBM treated the desktop user space when they and
: > Microsoft split their co-designed OS efforts. OS2 desktop users have
: > been consistantly shafted by IBM even if it was a superior product to
: > Microsofts offerings of the day. MS has pushed personal computing
: > further than Apple and IBM have anyday, sure they haven't been at the
: > for-front like Amiga was but look at Amiga now, just dust. I also
: > don't condone MS's market strongman tactics but I can tell you I'd
: > take Win2K over any for of Unix for the desktop anyday. BeOS is the
: > only real contender and they are a few years behind in features and
: > applications. Mac OSX, please give me a break, Unix (FreeBSD) with a
: > pretty Xwindow manager tacked on to try and hide it but with all the
: > inherrent problems Unix has like their antiquated File naming system.
: You evidently know nothing at all about Mac OS X. It isn't FreeBSD
: (unless you'd like to tell me what FreeBSD distros are based on Mach?),
_You_ evidently know nothing at all about MacOS X. The core of MacOS X,
known as Darwin, is partially based on both Mach and FreeBSD v3.2.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/inside.html
---
"The system's kernel, which does the heavy lifting to support all those
rich applications, is based on Mach 3.0 from Carnegie-Mellon
University and FreeBSD 3.2 (derived from the University of California
at Berkeley's BSD 4.4-Lite), the most highly regarded core
technologies from two of the most widely acclaimed OS projects of the
modern era."
---
And the article goes on, to tout "memory protection". Obviously something
new and exciting to the Macintosh community.
---
When applications are isolated in their own memory space, they can't
interfere with each other if one goes bad. And, perhaps best of all,
you don't need to restart your computer. The computer simply shuts
down the offending application and its memory space, letting you
continue on your merry way without interruption.
---
Gee... WindowsNT has been doing this since, oh, v3.1. *sigh* Come on
Apple... you people should have been first in line with this one.
[SNIP]
: OS X's architecture is far beyond anything that will likely be available
: from Microsoft any time soon.
And exactly what is in MacOS X that isn't in WindowsNT? Please do
enlighten us. If your answer is going to be UNIX interoperability,
please save your breath.
--
.-----.
|[_] :| Stephen S. Edwards II | NetBSD: Free of hype and license.
| = :| "Artificial Intelligence -- The engineering of systems that
| | yield results such as, 'The answer is 6.7E23... I think.'"
|_..._| [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: PLAN9 O/S - - Upcoming Linux Competition ? ? ?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:35:05 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Jacques Guy would say:
>Barbara Reuter wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>I suspect you've been had. "Plan 9 From Outer Space" is
>the title of a cult movie, the worst movie ever made, its
>fans hold. So Plan 9 O/S, where O/S stands, I guess, not
>for "Operating System" but for "Outer Space", well...?
You might want to consult the FAQ:
<http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/plan9/faq.html>
"Where did the name come from?
It was chosen in our tradition of selecting names that make
marketeers wince. We also wished to pay homage to the famous film,
Plan 9 From Outer Space."
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/oses.html>
Chaotic Evil means never having to say you're sorry.
------------------------------
From: Craig Perry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Enemies of Linux are MS Lovers
Crossposted-To: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:40:22 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On 1/06/2000, 5:37:34 AM, Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote =
regarding Re: Enemies of Linux are MS Lovers:
> Christopher Browne wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > Giuliano's grammar is a bit painful, but if English is a second (or =
even
> > third!) language, that's pretty excusable.
> Why, there is such a thing as an English Grammar?
Yes. She's married to my English Grandpa.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Linux+Java, the best combination of techologies
Date: 31 May 2000 17:00:25 -0700
I have been thinking of what is the best technologies to use for a major
software project, I came up with the combination of Linux+Java as
the best techologies to use.
I can not think of anything better. Java provides the portability
and good language to use, Linux provides a solid platform to
develop Java applications on. (Solaris is also a very good platform
to use).
Any one thinking of developing user applications must be crazy not
to consider Java. Good language, portable, well documented. Linux,
is solid platform, good platform for development.
We live now in the best times for software development, thanks to everyone
who brought Java and Unix for us.
Any opposing view points are welcome.
Phil
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Enemies of Linux are MS Lovers
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:54:09 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Quoting abraxas from alt.destroy.microsoft; 31 May 2000 23:54:47 GMT
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Quoting abraxas from alt.destroy.microsoft; 31 May 2000 20:22:24 GMT
>> [...]
>>>Its not a three word explanation, it is in fact, multiple paragraphs.
>
>> Then its too long. Cut it down to three words and get back to me. You
>> don't need to explain your reasoning; I'm not trolling and am not lying
>> in wait. I'm just curious.
>
>Sorry, four words minimum.
>
>>>You do not need to feign interest here, you may simply drop it and
>>>save face if you like.
>
>> I am not feigning interest. I'm just masking boredom, a little. If it
>> is important enough to flaunt the rules of the very language you're
>> trying to use, surely it is important enough to be worth explaining. I
>> can't believe it would be all that complicated.
>
>I understand the rules of english spelling and grammar sufficiently
>that I may bend and break them as I see fit.
Well, of course you can. But why do you see fit to fail to punctuate
contractions correctly? You just don't like things dangling above the
line? You had a mishap with a single quote on a bus? You lost the use
of your right pinky in a book-bindery explosion?
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
ELTRAX Technology Services Group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:19:02 -0400
>Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> > MS offers no choices with browsers and MS has a monopoly. Harm and a
>> > foul.
>>
>> No. Microsoft been decreed to have Monopoly power, they do not hold a
>> Monopoly. Holding a monopoly means that you have 100% government enforced
>> market share. Those are two very different concepts.
If you really think that a monopoly can only exist if it has a 100% government
enforced market share -- you are a jackass. Such monopolies do exist, but
they are highly regulated. Microsoft is not such a monopoly, and could not
survive such an environment because they have no capability to meet the
service requirements or standards of performance that a regulated monopoly
must comply with if they want to maintain their operating license.
===========================================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===========================================================
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:03:50 -0400
Shock Boy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>"poldy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> At the onset of the trial, Jackson plotted out an expedited schedule
>> including limiting the number of witnesses each side could call. So if
>> he had that kind of discretion, why would he not have discretion to
>> decide whether there should be further proceedings? Think someone
>> reported that the Appeals or Supreme court could send back the case to
>> order discovery of the remedy issues before reviewing the whole case.
>>
>> Seems strange that the party who violated the law should have the right
>> to investigate the propriety of the remedy or otherwise argue what it's
>> punishment should be. But maybe the law provides for this.
>Anti trust cases do follow a slightly seperate procedure than normal civil
>matters... for example, the Sherman Act specifically gives procedures to
>expedite appeals direct to the supreme court, etc.
>One of the things that seperates this case from many of the common "mentioned
>cases" is that in the others, the defendants ultimately agreed to impliment
>the remedies. Case law pertaining to an appeal of procedings form the Sherman
>Act is well, very murcky at best.
Say Shock boy, this post wasn't written by the same half-wit as some of the
others from the same name. Who are you today, how much does M$ pay you, and do
you rank high enough to have an office on the same floor as gates?
===========================================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===========================================================
------------------------------
From: Thingfishhhh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why We Should Be Nice To Windows Users -was- Neologism of the day
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:02:59 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (tinman) wrote:
> [groups snipped]
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Nathaniel Jay Lee
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > I ask, do I need to continue to treat this type of person with respect.
> > I don't feel he deserves respect, and as it seems to look like a good
> > possibility that I will end up losing my job over this (install windows,
> > or lose my job, which would you do?). And the reasoning behind why I
> > can't keep Linux on the network: not because Linux has failed us, not
> > because Linux isn't ready for use, not because anyone has an actual
> > complaint against any of the software we have used, but because we
> > brought in someone new that is supposed to be a salesman that decided he
> > had to have Windows to survive. And when asked why he has to have
> > Windows, his sound mind comes up with this: "We have to have Windows
> > because that's what everyone else uses." Period. Not a very good
> > reason in my mind. But I have decided that if the bosses actually fall
> > for this I probably don't really want to work here after all. Why would
> > I want to work for a company where everyone would throw themselves off a
> > cliff if "everyone else" did?
>
> Well, while I appreciate your frustration, but IMO you do need to continue
> to treat this yutz with respect--that is part of your job as a support
> person. Of course, if you're ever not happy in a job, considering your
> options is a good thing to do--there's lots of work out there....('
But where do you draw the line with putzes like this? this guy abviously
has an agenda that is not based on the needs of the company, but based
on HIS needs. It's called being selfish, and it's unfortunately not that
uncommon in the world of salesmen.
I really don;t care for salesmen. They tend to be arrogant, ignorant,
selfish, more concerned with their hair and THEIR needs, and don;t give
a rats ass about anthing else. I *know* this guy - I've worked with him
plenty of times at many, many companies. Typical MBA mentality - learn
one way, and that's the *only* way, no matter what. Typical prima-donna
bullshit with a cheap haircut and suit.
I worked with someone like this - a company I worked for hired a VP of
marketing/sales. The second day, he decided that I was *his* graphic
designer, and proceeded to try an give me all kinds of stupid jobs to
do, despite the fact that I was already working 60-80 hours a week, was
stressed out, was doing the work of three people, and had told him flat
out to his face I could not take on any more work, that he was NOT my
superior, and that it was not going to happen.
This guy made my life hell until I left a few months later - because we
were Mac based in production, we were in charge of all of our machines.
The rest of the company used Windows with proprietary software to access
the sales database. Well, he decided to get a Mac. and proceeded to
whine about getting the freelance programmers we used to write a client
program for him, despite the fact that he had a perfectly good Windows
machine on his desk already. And then i had to start supoorting his
machine, and he was the same - he installed all kinds of garbage, did
wierd things when trying to *fix* it himself, and I had to clean up
after him. I almost decked him more than a few times - it would be about
8:30 at night, I'd be stressed out and punchy from drinking coffee all
day, and this weasel would bob in after dinner and mention that I needed
to look at his computer again.
I would say, if you can afford to, take a stand and hold to your
principles. Don;t let an arrogant little pissant like that ruin your
life - I guarantee you ther is *nothing* that you could do tomake him
happy - even if you did switch to Windows, this guy would be hounding
you day and night because he screwed something up. This guy sounds like
a real prima donna, and the kind of asshole who will go in at night when
you're not there and tinker. I'll bet he thinks he's qualified to play
with servers, too. I'd bet on it. Do you really want to clean up after
this guy?
Life is just too damned short to let guys like this hold you back.
You're lucky in one respect - this is a GREAT time to look for work. I'd
tell this guy to pound sand. What's more important, your stress levels
and happiness, or his? Let him stay there, let him force them to switch
to Windows, and let *him* be in charge of the transition. I know most
accountants I know really, really *hate* having the software switched.
Let's see what the bosses think when productivity plummets because this
guy can'tdeal with anything but what *he* likes.
>
> Main thing to remember is it's just a job....
Absolutely. That's why i started temping. I work less, make more (just
got notified of a raise today - wahoo!), get treated a LOT better, have
more fun, and feel more rewarded. And if I run into guys like this, i
can tell them to go pound sand, or I call my agency, and I get a new
position tomorrow. Luckily, where I am now doesnt hire idiots like that.
So far.
------------------------------
From: Marty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Bob's Law
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:07:04 GMT
Bob Lyday wrote:
>
> EdWIN wrote:
> >
> > >> > > >>>>>> We sic Tholen onto you.
>
> Bob's Law invoked. Tholen mentioned. Thread is now officially dead.
This thread is much like OS/2. Declared as officially dead by so many, yet it
keeps on going. :-)
------------------------------
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