Linux-Advocacy Digest #850, Volume #26 Sat, 3 Jun 00 08:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: OSWars 2000 at www.stardock.com (rj friedman)
Re: Canada invites Microsoft north (Bob Germer)
Re: Canada invites Microsoft north (G. Wayne Hines)
Re: Why Linux, and X.11 when MacOS 'X' is around the corner? (Cihl)
Re: Canada invites Microsoft north (Bob Germer)
Re: Is This Scenario Possible? (Cihl)
Re: Floating City? (was Re: Canada invites Microsoft north) (Bob Germer)
Re: Floating City? (was Re: Canada invites Microsoft north) (Karel Jansens)
Re: Floating City? (was Re: Canada invites Microsoft north) (Karel Jansens)
Re: Observations of a Lurker (Paul Voller)
Re: Why UNIX Rocks (Pim van Riezen)
Re: Why UNIX Rocks (Pim van Riezen)
Re: Canada invites Microsoft north (Bob Germer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (rj friedman)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OSWars 2000 at www.stardock.com
Date: 3 Jun 2000 11:15:09 GMT
On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 02:18:42 "Brad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
¯> ¯Do you seriously think that the reason why I and basically every remotely
¯> ¯knowledgeable person out there considers that there are "Few" OS/2 users
¯out
¯> ¯there strictly because a particular OS/2 ISV (in this case Stardock's)
¯> ¯software no longer sell in large quantity?
¯> I seriously KNOW that the reason YOU contend that there are
¯> only 3000 - 5000 OS/2 users out there is because STARDOCK's
¯> lineup of OS/2 products no longer sell in large quantity.
¯> How do I know that. Because that's exactly what you have
¯> written.
¯>
¯> I also seriously think that you do "every remotely
¯> knowledgeable person out there" a disservice by including
¯> yourself in that number.
¯I don't mean this to be an insult but I don't really think your view on
¯technical things is really worthy of consideration...
Well, you do have a habit of jumping to erroneous
conclusions based on insufficient information and the
presumptuous assumption that your view of the universe is
the only right one. Further, one of the chief weapons in
your "full-of-shit" debate arsenal is to brand those who
disagree with your pontifications are either "kooks", or
"incompetents". So it doesn't surprise me that you would
come up with a statement like that.
Further - my allegedly unworthy views on matters technical
is neither here nor there vis-a-vis the "full-of-shit"
statements that you made and continue to make about the
"death of OS/2". YOU were the one who made those statements,
after all. All I did was bring them up to show how
ridiculous your arguments are.
¯Most of your posts I've
¯read seem to be some sort of obsession with calling people a "rat" which I
¯find, frankly, a little bit bizarre.
What I find bizarre is the way that you turn a contention I
am having with one single individual into a "bizarre
obsession with calling a people a "rat". Would you care to
amplify exactly how many people I am allegedly obssessed
with calling a rat? This is still another example of the
Wardell "full-of-shit" debating style.
And even more to the point, the individual happens to
actually be a RAT. He has been called a RAT by more than one
person on more than one occasion. I only came across the use
of the term in regard to the RAT long after I came to the
conclusion that a RAT is what he is, based on past
experience on more than one occasion.
But jumping to erroneous conclusions based on insufficient
knowledge is typical for you - as an individual who thinks
he knows it all, and has all the "right" answers, and is too
egotistical to entertain the presumption that the fault lies
with himself.
¯But as for how many active OS/2 desktop users there are 3000 to 5000 seems
¯reasonable...
The fact that you can say that it seems reasonable shows
just exactly how ridiculous your claims are, and the depths
of denial you are willing to descend to in order to keep
from facing the fact that it was Stardock's tired, outdated
software, and your "the hell with what the customer wants,
I'm going to do what I want," attitude that was responsible
for Stardock being unable to sell software to the OS/2
userbase.
¯But let's say I'm off, let's say there are 10,000...
Let's say that you have no idea of what you are talking
about. Do you really think that 10,000 is any less
ridiculous of a figure than 3-5 thousand? What a laugh!
¯How many desktop users of OS/2 do
¯you think there are? I.e. people using OS/2 to do word processing, surf the
¯web, and whatever else a desktop user of an OS would do. How many do you
¯think there are?
I don't know. I don't care. I do know that we just got an
updated kernel; a new client is in the works for the fall;
java 1.3 is coming in beta this spring; Papyrus just came
out; an updated RSJ just came out; an updated DragText just
came out; an updated PMView just came out; a new Navigator
is coming; I see all kinds of new drivers almost every day;
I see user level apps constantly coming out - both new and
updated.
So I KNOW from the experience of my senses, that when you
say that OS/2 is dead/dying that you are flat out full of
it.
We know why you are carrying on in this vein. You can't face
the fact that it was your attitude and your products that
were the reason for your inability to make a buck doing
OS/2. Your overbearing and brittle ego couldn't take it. So
to absolve yourself of failure you turn to the excuse that
it was because OS/2 only has 3-5 thousand users.
¯You do what remains of the OS/2 community a disservice by behaving like such
¯a rabid nutcase...
Shove it. Exactly who do you think you are to pontificate
about what does or does not do the "OS/2 community" (whoever
and whatever they are), any kind of service or disserivice.
And then - let's not forget to start in with the Wardell
"full-of-shit" debate tactics. Let's bring out the tarbrush
and brand any who oppose you as a "rabid nutcase". Hey,
guess what. You do the Windows developer community a
disservice by behaving like a schoolyard bully with your
"full-of-shit" debate tactics.
¯Most OS/2 users are nice normal people...
Whoops! There goes the F-O-S meter off the graph. First off,
you haven't got the faintest idea as to how many are out
there; second, no matter how many it is, you don't begin to
know a fraction of them; and here we go with the implication
that anyone who doesn't see the universe according to the
laws of science as expounded 'ex-cathedra' by hizzoner
Wardell is a "rabid nutcase."
P.S. You forgot to put in your usual troll of the week: "of
the few that are left."
¯I am not even sure what your contention is, so put it on the table. You say
¯OS/2 is doing "fine" on the desktop. Okay, define "fine". How many users
¯do you think right this moment are using OS/2 as their primary desktop OS?
There goes the F-O-S meter off the graph again. I already
told you what I don't know and what I do know. The main
thing I know is that your F-O-S attempt to claim that OS/2
is dying/dead in spite of all evidence to the contrary, is
rooted in your ego's inability to face that fact that
Stardock wasn't able to sell product into the OS/2 market
because your products were old, tired, overpriced, and had
been surpassed by shareware and freeware. To say nothing of
your attitude vis-a-vis refusing to build the type of apps
that the OS/2 market was/is evolving into wanted. You
weren't going to let the customer tell you nuthin'; you were
going to do what you wanted to do, and the hell with what
they wanted.
If you're looking for an excuse for your failure, blame OS/2
and IBM; if you want the real reason, take a look in the
mirror.
________________________________________________________
[RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
rj friedman Team ABW
Taipei, Taiwan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To send email - remove the `yyy'
________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Canada invites Microsoft north
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:14:20 GMT
On 06/03/2000 at 06:49 AM,
John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Actually, I think a better thing to do would be for BG to simply decide
> he has enough money and close Microsoft. Stop selling any more
> software, don't give anyone the source. Pay out the shareholders. Hell,
> if you want to be really mean you give the source to the Chinese
> government.
> Basically, say to the govt "I'm taking my toys and going home".
That would be contempt of court. If BG tried that, all the assets of MS
would immediately be siezed by the US Government.
> Linux not having a worthwhile UI yet leaves Apple. They don't have
> compatible hardware. Intel, AMD and others would sink into the ground.
> You'd probably end up with a major recession in the US.
I see that you are from Australia. MicroSoft employs an infantisimal
percentage of our workforce. In fact, I seriously doubt that MS has
anywhere near the 345,00 new jobs our economy created last month in a slow
month. Even if MS has 500,000 employees it would only add about a third of
a percentage point to our 4.1% unemployment rate raising it to 4.4% TOPS.
That would not cause a ripple.
Assuming the assinine that MS does move to Canada and takes all its
employees, the people who would suffer the most are the employees. MS
employees would find no buyers for their US homes or would have to sell
them in a very depressed local real estate market. A home worth $300,000
the day the move was announced would suddenly become worth less than
$200,000, very likely less than the mortgage and selling costs. Also they
would suddenly find themselves in a country with socialized medicine, much
higher taxes, and a dollar suddenly worth only 67% of what it was the day
before.
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.19zf Registration Number 67
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (G. Wayne Hines)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Canada invites Microsoft north
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:16:41 GMT
In an earlier episode, Brad BARCLAY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 5) Which would mean that MS would lose most of it's experienced
> developers, and would wind up hiring probably about 15000 new employees
> who have never even seen the Windows source code (nevermind the source
> for any other MS product). This would mean that for a year (or more)
Well, that might just improve the product. :-)
Actually, I think the NS government should get on the ball and
try to attract MS to Cape Breton. :-)
gwh
# [EMAIL PROTECTED] G. Wayne Hines #
# Team OS/2 Kentville, NS, Canada #
# I don't wanna work. I just want to ride on the train all day #
# http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/w.d.hines/express.html #
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: Why Linux, and X.11 when MacOS 'X' is around the corner?
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:19:52 GMT
If Mac-OS X will run on my Intel-based computer, i'll be the first to
try it. Believe me!
I'm not going to buy another computer just because a particular OS
runs on it. It's that simple.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Canada invites Microsoft north
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:20:53 GMT
On 06/03/2000 at 08:21 AM,
John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> >The U.S. economy sits upon such a broad base that no single
> >point of failure will bring it down.
> I didn't say bring it down completely, but it would cause a
> recession.
And you were wrong then and you are wrong now. You don't have any concept
of the US economy, its size, its strength, or its resiliency.
Moreover, you fail to take into account that many, if not most, MS
employees would not abandon the US to move to Canada with its inferior
medical care system. One of Northwest Washington's significant employers
is medicine where there are literally hundreds of doctors who make their
living from Canadians coming across the border for medical care for which
they shell out their own depreciated dollars to pay for care they can't
get in Canada.
MS employees have access to the source code. Many would likely band
together to produce a MS clone in a matter of months at most. MS Canada
might sue that they were violating copyrights which they might well be
doing. However, our courts wouldn't have much incentive to do anything
quickly for a fugitive complaintant. By the time the case was heard, it
would be moot since 8 or 10 years would have passed.
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.19zf Registration Number 67
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Is This Scenario Possible?
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:23:49 GMT
I think it would be a lot more fun if Microsoft wouldn't be split up
at all!
This is because i think it would be more interesting to see if the
GNU/Linux community would be able to stand up against Microsoft all by
itself, without any help from anybody else.
Any thoughts on this?
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Floating City? (was Re: Canada invites Microsoft north)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:29:11 GMT
On 06/03/2000 at 05:14 AM,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich) said:
> If the 20,000 employees of M$'s Redmond campus were to be housed in
> some Princess-class ships, there would need to be 10 of them. Including
> the employees' families would likely increase this figure by a factor
> of 2 or 3.
Not to mention that there would have to be the families of the crew as
well since this would have to be a permanant move. Were such a fantasy to
occur, SS MS would have to have a source of fuel, food, repair parts, etc.
And entry into either a US port or a port of a country which follows
international law regarding criminals would be impossible since the ship
would be arrested once it dropped anchor.
And for the illeducated, ships and airplanes are arrested when a judgement
against the owners exists. Unlike automobiles, cash, etc. which are
confiscated, ships and aircraft are arrested under international law.
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.19zf Registration Number 67
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Floating City? (was Re: Canada invites Microsoft north)
Date: 3 Jun 2000 12:37:45 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich) wrote:
> They find some shipyard somewhere to do the work, and when it's
> done, they have some tugs haul it from its home to Puget Sound. It gets
> registered in someplace like Panama or Liberia, someplace famous for
> having lots of ships registered there which have never docked there.
>
Luxembourg? (you can't get more "never docking there" than that)
Karel Jansens
jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
========================================================
"Ceteris censeo Fenestras delendas."
Cato - De Terrore Portarum (trad. Sandro Gasparetto)
========================================================
------------------------------
From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Floating City? (was Re: Canada invites Microsoft north)
Date: 3 Jun 2000 12:37:45 GMT
Steve White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <6kZZ4.1588$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Mike Trettel"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > MS-Ship better have a real good defense system.
>
>
> e.g., NOT the one the Navy used when it tested WinNT.
>
I think the Navy using NT _is_ the best defense system for MS-Ship.
I see it all so clearly now: the Fiend-from-Hell Gates had this
planned all along! Is there no end to his evil?
Karel Jansens
jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
========================================================
"Ceteris censeo Fenestras delendas."
Cato - De Terrore Portarum (trad. Sandro Gasparetto)
========================================================
------------------------------
From: Paul Voller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Observations of a Lurker
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:35:49 +0100
On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Secretly Cruel wrote:
|On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 21:58:45 +0200, Mig Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
|>> systems and I've always had problems like you mention above. If Opera
|>> for Linux ever reaches full usability, Netscape is *off* this here
|>> machine forever. :-)
|>
|>Please post a "crash" URL
|
|I didn't write them down when they happened since I wasjust idly
|surfing. I'll come up with a few of them and post them here.
Here's one that sometimes crashes my Netscape 4.72 (under RH6.2):
http://www.joecartoons.com/
Theres some Flash content in it and when you attempt to exits one of the
windows that pop up, Netscape dies.
P.
------------------------------
From: Pim van Riezen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why UNIX Rocks
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:16:14 CEST
[EMAIL PROTECTED] tapped some keys and produced:
> Really? Then why does it crash so often? Why is the documentation so
> poor? Why are the progamming tools so unpowerful? Why it doesn't
> support sane I/O? Why does it have so many bugs?
I sense some bitterness here. Been bitten by a linux development project
lately? :)
> The metrics which are important to me, as a professional developer,
> are:
>
> - Reliability
In what field? The reliability-stats of linux ar somewhat of a mixed bag in
my experience. I've seen reliability woes come up in the case of
sunrpc-based services (particularily nfs services on older kenels). But I've
also seen machines perform their task well for stretches of over a year.
We've celebrated half a dozen of one-year-uptime-events on our farm of
linuxboxen.
> - Quality programming tools
Define quality? One could claim the COBOL support for Linux isn't exactly
daft. Writing and debugging C/C++ software, however, will not make you feel
bereft of tools.
> - Excellent documentation
There are some manpages which need improvement. My major gripe with linux'
documentation is the fact that it's not well-indexed enough. You may spend
hours watching at a manpage, while the TeX-based documentation in /usr/doc,
or the info-pages, contain the relevant information you need. The last
resort of looking at the kernel/library-sources to figure things out is not
one I'd prefer to take, but the possibility to do that does appeal to me.
The documentation
> - Utilities which can be used productively
You'll have to be more specific. There are a lot of utilities out there,
even in the stock install, which can be used very productively.
> - A consistent and powerful API
POSIX is just that to me. With the added advantage of it being very easy to
port the things I do in linux to a myriad of other UN*Xen out there.
> Linux does all five of extremely poorly. The more serious systems -- VMS
> -- do them well. To be fair, I'm sure you're not a developer, and are
> mainly interesting in browsing the web and playing games, so these
> metrics aren't important to you. But you shouldn't claim that Linux is
> "great" including areas which you aren't faimilar with.
I have no experiene with VMS. I don't expect it to be the hen with the
golden eggs, though. Every system has its own peculiar way of looking at the
world, which reflects in how you program it. If you're very used to the
philosophy of one system, the other may be too icky for you.
Cheers,
Pi
--
I need an enemy.
------------------------------
From: Pim van Riezen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why UNIX Rocks
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:20:54 CEST
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (CAguy) tapped some keys and produced:
> I contend that the vast majority of perceived instability problems with
> windows are caused, not by windows itself, but by marginal hardware.
> This is totally out of Microsofts control...yet they get the blame for
> it. Anyone who gets a BSOD on any regular basis probably has bad hardware
> (or drivers).
This may very well be the case. But the problem may be, that they put the
instable drivers in anyway, for the sake of selling more copies. Perfectly
understandable, but it means you leverage the PC philosophy of near-stable
cheap imitation hardware into the field of OS and Software Design.
Also, it seems that Linux tends to be more graceful in handling sloppy
hardware than Windows is. This could indicate that the MSFT code doesn't
really assume that hardware can be bogus.
Pi
--
I need an enemy.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Canada invites Microsoft north
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:54:59 GMT
On 06/03/2000 at 11:16 AM,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (G. Wayne Hines) said:
> Actually, I think the NS government should get on the ball and try to
> attract MS to Cape Breton. :-)
ABSOLUTELY NOT. Cape Breton Island is one of the most beautiful, wonderful
places on the face of the earth with the most friendly residents I have
ever encountered as an alien traveller. Even Scotland is not quite as
friendly to foreigners as Cape Breton.
PLEASE don't despoil Cape Breton with the likes of Gates and his geeks.
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.19zf Registration Number 67
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
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