Linux-Advocacy Digest #221, Volume #27 Wed, 21 Jun 00 00:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Linux is awesome! (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Linux is awesome! (Gary Hallock)
Re: How many times, installation != usability. (WhyteWolf)
Re: Windows98 (WhyteWolf)
Re: Stupid idiots that think KDE is a Window Manager (Gary Hallock)
Re: I had a reality check today :( (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: I had a reality check today :( (Gary Hallock)
Re: Stupid idiots that think KDE is a Window Manager (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: 10 things you can do with Windows... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: The MEDIA this year! (Salvador Peralta)
Re: The MEDIA this year! ("Pan")
Re: Stupid idiots that think KDE is a Window Manager ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: 486 Linux setup, 250 meg HD, which distro ??? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Linux is awesome!
Date: 20 Jun 2000 22:03:24 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>>The point is, which you have missed, is that I have seen more come and
>>>go in my lifetime than you have.
>>>
>>>Linux will fade just like the 2821 and it's attached 1403 and 3525
>>>card punch.
>>
>>No, it will be more like the unix that ran on the PDP11's. And
>>I'm not sure I'd call that fading.
>
>And in all that time it has still not taken over the desktop. What
>makes you think it will now?
The thing that did take over the desktop did so because it was cheaper
not because it was better than unix. Now it isn't either.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:10:58 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is awesome!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Oh I think I have dropped enough hints to prove I know what I am
> talking about. At least for you anyway.......
>
> one last hint, just for you......
>
> PBC360
>
> ........
>
> you should be able to figure it out now.....
>
Ah, yes. Of course, PBC360 applies to everyone, so it says nothing about your
technical abilities. If you are so aware, then you will know that people have
been saying for the last quarter century that VM will die, and yet amazingly it
lives on. So, also, goes your predictions of Linux and Unix dying.
Gary
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (WhyteWolf)
Subject: Re: How many times, installation != usability.
Date: 21 Jun 2000 02:03:55 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Sorry but I don't believe you at all.
beleave me or don't .. thats your choice
>
>
>
>I have a Pentium 450mhz with 256mb and some of the fastest UltraDma
>and SCSI hard drives you can buy and on my system the little sprocket
>in the kfm window spins longer than it should after clicking on the
>/dev directory.
humm ... and exatly how long was it spinning?
only problem I had was after clicking on a url
and it trying to connect to the net it would
totaly mess up the way the web I clicked on looked
I hated the built in web browser to KDE
... thats why I dumped KDE totaly
I use Window Maker now ..
>
>Try scrolling while kfm is still churning..
I usta do that all the time while loading /usr/bin
the program I ushaly wanted was at the base
{damn 280 file directorys}
[sniped the bullshit]
--
-=-=-=-=-
A little experience often upsets a lot of theory.
-=-=-=-=-
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (WhyteWolf)
Subject: Re: Windows98
Date: 21 Jun 2000 02:21:46 GMT
>Your opinion is correct.
>
>That's why anybody with a degree in Computer Science or Computer
>Systems Engineering recognizes LoseDows for the pile of shit that it is.
it doesn't take a degree for that ... useing it long enough
will point it out .. to all but the very basic user
--
-=-=-=-=-
To get back on your feet, miss two car payments.
-=-=-=-=-
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:20:45 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Stupid idiots that think KDE is a Window Manager
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Learn to read asshole...
> I said Caching (not cashing like YOU prefer to call it) only applies
> to repetitive tasks. For example opening the same directory 15 time in
> a row.
>
> The first opening will be x time, the subsequent openings will be x -
> some factor due to caching (not cashing like you call it)....
>
> The bottom line is, that kfm is several factors slower than Explorer
> in opening, for the first time, cold boot, a directory of a similar
> number of files.
>
> And in my experience it aint even close....
>
> Explorer is instantaneous and kfm churns on and on and on....
>
> Prove it asshole.....
>
kfm is a little slow, although not nearly as slow as you want to pretend. Windows
explorer takes quite a long time to start up and display my C disk. And that really
doesn't have many files in the top directory. In any case, KDE developers realized
that kfm was a little slow and came up with konqeror. Try displaying the contents of
/dev with konqeror. Don't blink or you'll miss it. And, as I have said before, if you
don't want to download konqeror now and can't wait another month or two until KDE 2.0
is released, then use gmc. It is quite fast and easily beats Windows explorer.
Gary
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I had a reality check today :(
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:24:59 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:40:11 -0400, Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >> Great response woofbert!!!
> >> I'll respond below.
> >>
> >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:29:13 -0700, Woofbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Hello! It's about time the Linux world recognized that not everyone
> >> >likes to buy computer kits and put them together. Some people like to
> >> >buy computers and use them. (Bear with me ... I'm a Maccie who finds
> >> >himself strangely attracted to investigating Linux. My Yellow Dog and a
> >> >big ol' hard drive are in the mail.)
> >>
> >> Linux has a place in this world, but you are correct. Most people like
> >> to pull it out of the box and plug it in.
> >>
> >> >1. What to get your daughter? I'd recommend the iMac. It's what she
> >> >wants, and it's a kickass machine for the artistically inclined. (Please
> >> >forgive my stereotypical presumptions.)
> >>
> >> She IS artistic, but highly anti-computer. She would have been better
> >> off born in the 1960's as a flower child.
> >>
> >> She likes the concept of the iMac and I feel it might help her enjoy
> >> computers more.
> >>
> >> >2. What to do about the wide variety of hardware and bundled software?
> >> >This is hard ... Do you really *want* Linux to take over Windows'
> >> >position? Then you have to make something better than Windows ... which
> >> >means that it works with all the existing hardware and software, right,
> >> >the first time, without any problems. (Never mind all the stuff about
> >> >how Linux is technically or politically better than Windoze ... Maccies
> >> >have been saying that about the Mac for years and it hasn't worked.
> >> >Much.)
> >>
> >> That is my main beef with Linux. For the mass market it does
> >> absolutely NOTHING better than Windows. Sure if you're a student
> >> programmer you can be set up with compilers, editors and such for
> >> $1.99. the reality is most home users are not interested in that.
> >>
> >> >From this perspective, Linux will have an easier time taking over
> >> >Windoze than Mac: Windoze systems are brittle, and people expect them to
> >> >be flaky.
> >>
> >> Very true, and the "what if your Lexus needed a tuneup every week "
> >> argument is a valid one.
> >>
> >> Mac systems are well-integrated and things work. Badly
> >> >designed software just doesn't make it in the Mac market. People will
> >> >not want to take a giant leap backwards in user-friendliness, usability,
> >> >reliability, and servicibility. Linux needs to become *consistent* if it
> >> >wants to take over Windows. And so far, that it ain't.
> >>
> >> Linux is a hodge podge of hacked together programs. Some are excellent
> >> and some pitiful. There is really no cohesive bond that holds them
> >> together.
> >
> >Unix was DESIGNED from a "toolbox" approach, By your reasoning,
> >a mechanic's socket-wrench set is just a "hodge-podge" of pieces
> >of metal that can't do anything alone.
>
> Nope. An SK socket set is a well designed tool box in and of itself
> that even the common housewife can operate.
>
> Try vi on you your significant other, assuming she is not a LinoGeek
^^^^^^^^
Makes sense to her...and, she's a linguist.
Speaks... oh, I'm losing track now:
Russian
English
German
French
Hindi
Arabic
Irdu
Sanskrit
And some others I can't remember at the moment.
AND she's a whiz at calculus
> of course :)
> >>
> >> Based on your suggestions I am going to investigate the iMac tomorrow.
> >>
> >> Thank you..
> >>
> >> Simon
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:28:35 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I had a reality check today :(
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> That's ok. If Linux can prove it is better than Windows, or Mac, I
> will use it.
>
Ah, yes. The classic teknite response. You sit in this group
under a few dozen different aliases bad mouthing Linux and Unix and
lying, and them you turn around and say "I would drop Windows in a
flash if Linux got a little better". What a joke you are.
Gary
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Stupid idiots that think KDE is a Window Manager
Date: 20 Jun 2000 22:20:16 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>And what gui based browser under Linux would that be?
Try X WinCommander - it feels at least 10x faster opening
/dev, although I still don't understand why anyone would
want to mouse their way through thousands of files.
If you have Mandrake 7.1 you'll find it under applications/file tools
as XWC file manager.
>KDE IMHO is the best of the environments, all things considered
>although Gnome looks much better. Problem is Gnome was so unstable on
>my system it didn't matter.
You can still run gmc which seems somewhat faster at opening large
directories than kfm, but not as dramatic as xwc. You'll find
it in the same menu. You don't have to make an all-or-nothing
choice here.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:47:51 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Paul 'Z' Ewande©" wrote:
>
> Joe Ragosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message :
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > > >Is there some official estimate of how much time or money a year
> > > >goes into Windows-related training?
> > >
> > > What are you talking about ?
> > >
> > > Where I work, a few people go to a Windows basics course of one or two
> > > days duration, but most of the training is on applications like Excel,
> > > Word or Access. They (as you should know) are quite complicated and
> > > powerful programs.
> > >
> >
> > That's assuming, of course, that you don't count the zillions of hours
> > lost to futzing while trying to learn the clunky OS.
>
> End users have no need "to futz around trying to learn the clunky OS", there
> are trained/experienced people for that.
>
> You launch apps and save your work the same way on the "clunky OS" or on the
> oh-so great MacOS.
>
> Paul 'Z' Ewande
That must be why there's a cottage industry selling all kinds of
"How to use LoseDows" videotapes.
Intuitive, my ass.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:49:21 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Joe Ragosta wrote:
>
> In article <8ih3vp$mt6$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Paul 'Z' Ewande©"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Joe Ragosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message :
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > In article <8ig2k4$2dk2$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Paul 'Z' Ewande©"
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joe Ragosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message :
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > End users have no need "to futz around trying to learn the clunky
> > > > > > OS",
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > are trained/experienced people for that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, I see.
> > > > >
> > > > > So end users don't have to learn how to use Windows? They just have
> > > > > trained people do all their computer work for them?
> > > >
> > > > Nope. They use the apps, period. Launching an app, doing what has to
> > > > be
> > > > done, saving your work, and shutting down the computer seem as easy
> > > > to
> > do
> > > > on
> > > > both the Macintosh or on Windows. What they need to be trained on is
> > > > how
> > > > to
> > > > work on a particular app, not the intricacies of the OS.
> > >
> > > Wrong. They also have to learn file managemnet, at the very least.
> >
> > And it's _substantially_ different from the Mac how ?
>
> What does that have to do with anything?
>
> You claimed that users didn't have to learn Windows. Whether it's
> similar to another OS or not is irrelevant to that issue.
>
> >
> > > > That's why they are here for, not to fool around with their 'puters.
> > >
> > > Then how do you explain the fact that Mac users have such dramatically
> > > higher productivity level?
> >
> > I don't even try to. Then again I never experienced first hand a
> > _dramatically_ higher productivity level.
>
> Perhaps you haven't. But every published study says it's real. Too bad
> your little theory isn't consistent with that fact.
>
> >
> > > > Trained people perform the maintenance of the boxes [setting up,
> > > > installing/replacing hardware/software and such practices].
> > > >
> > > > > No wonder TCO is so bac on Windows. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Where I work, there are guys who are paid on _both_ Windows _and_
> > > > MacOS
> > > > to
> > > > take care of things such as setting up and tending to the boxes.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not convinced that it's an outrageously rare practice. Of course,
> > > > your
> > > > mileage may, and probably will, vary. :)
> > >
> > > All of which is irrelevant.
> >
> > It is ? I though we were talking of users "futzing while trying to learn
> > the
> > clunky OS."
> >
> > > You stated that end users don't have to learn to use Windows. That's
> > > absurd.
> >
> > Sez you. They have to be able to access their files, launch their apps,
> > save
> > their work, and shut down the computer. And IMO, it's done as easily on
> > Windows or the MacOS, from where I stand.
>
> Whether it's as easy or not is irrelevant.
>
> You claimed that users didn't need to learn Windows. Just how are they
> supposed to do the things you listed if they don't learn Windows?
He's just demonstrating the usual stupidity of the typical LoseDows
advocate.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: 10 things you can do with Windows...
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 03:37:44 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
No-Spam wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:55:03 -0700, Jacques Guy
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Terry Porter wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:07:33 GMT, Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >
> >> >#5. Upgrade to the next version!
> >> Yes, I *must* upgrade [ allow me to snip: soon Windows may be as
good as Linux!]
> >
> >You might be closer to the truth than you imagine. The other day, at
> >the newsagent's, I overheard a conversation between a fellow and
> >a child (father and son they must have been). It was about Windows
> >2000.
> >I gathered the "in" thing for kids was to have the latest, ie
Win2000.
> >A sort of keep up with the Joneses. Dad, I need 128M of RAM to run
> >Win2000! All the other kids at school run Win2000! Dad, I need an
> >upgrade! DAAAAD!!! I *must* upgrade!!!!
Translates well into the PHB arena; have had a boss whose sole strategic
direction was to have more expensive stuff than his counterpart.
Gotta go, tornado warning....
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Salvador Peralta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The MEDIA this year!
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:59:25 -0800
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth:
> I never said anything about server market, and in fact I support Linux
> in that area Salvador.
Funny, I must have missed those comments somewhere between all of the
"linsux" comments. I must confess that though my business is
application development/adminsitration/and data analysis on linux, I have
tended in the past not to use linux mush as my desktop. I felt that xfree86
was slow and the lack of pentium opcode support was problemmatic if you
happen to like using the gui. My m.o. was generally to open up a few
shells from win32.
Not so anymore. I overwrote an old suse version and did a clean install
of mandrake 7.1 on my development system (everything but /home), and I
have to tell you that I amazed. tt/redmond95 font support has removed
the old font uglification. The increased support for pentium opcodes
and/or the xfree86 v 4.0 has improved the speed with which graphics
linux has a small userbase. Since you seem to have missed it, these are
the links that are are drawn (no more jumps on my 60mhz PI). And
gnome appears to have surpassed kde as the best desktop environment
under linux. Mandrake even got rid of the bugs in the drak v 7.0
installer.
In any case, the subject at hand was that you claim that charlie had no
stats to back up the claim that IT managers are increasing their use of
linux on the desktop, and that linux has a small user base. Here are the
facts that relate to that discussion.
Here's one which says how many it managers intend to put linux on the
desktop in the next 12 months:
http://www.infotechtrends.com/cgi-bin/cif/sub_read.pl?ux=&quar=99Q2&99245030.htm=on
Here's one which charts the growth of the linux userbase from 1995-1998:
http://www.infotechtrends.com/cgi-bin/cif/sub_read.pl?ux=&quar=99Q1&99145016.htm=on
------------------------------
From: "Pan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The MEDIA this year!
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:05:00 -0800
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] quoth:
> I never said anything about server market, and in fact I support Linux
> in that area Salvador.
Linux makes an excellent desktop too. Mandrake 7.1 has extensive support
for pentium ops which, coupled with the new version of xfree86has improved
the speed considerably. The fonts on this system are as good as any that
I was used to under windows.
As an fyi for those who are interested... gnome appears to have surpassed
kde as the best linux desktop, imho.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Stupid idiots that think KDE is a Window Manager
Date: 21 Jun 2000 04:07:12 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Typical LinoNut semantic argument designed to take the focus off the
> original point that KDE sucks compared to Windows as far as the
> consistancy and speed of the gui is concerned.
>
Actually, your mistake in reference to KDE as a "window manager"
entirely nullifies all of your previous points. To make such a
collosal mistake as this betrays the true amount of unix knowledge
you posess, which would be this much:
0
=====yttrx
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: 486 Linux setup, 250 meg HD, which distro ???
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 04:08:04 GMT
According to peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I'm setting up two 486 linux systems, one will be a small web sever,
> firewall, and ip masq.
If you are really pressed for space, just go with the Linux Router
Project. Otherwise, I highly recomend Debian. The base install,
which is a completely usable system, is about 40 megs. This gives you
plenty of space for swap, logs, and other goodies. Don't bother with
Slink at this point, just grab the near-final Potato install disks and
have at it. 'apt' totally rules the planet.
-p.
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
