Linux-Advocacy Digest #221, Volume #33 Sat, 31 Mar 01 10:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Linux needs a standard, user proof distro ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Linux needs a standard, user proof distro (Rick)
Re: ATTN: Outlook Express Users and Virus's
Re: the mismeasure of man (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: Mircosoft Tax (Perry Pip)
Re: Java, the "Dot-Com" Language? ("Chad Myers")
Re: New worm infests Linux machines/Exposes root backdoor ("Chad Myers")
Re: Linux needs a standard, user proof distro ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Linux needs a standard, user proof distro (Warren Bell)
Re: Arrrrgh! Hoist the Jolly Roger! (Chris Ahlstrom)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux needs a standard, user proof distro
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 08:32:50 -0500
Rick wrote:
>
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> >
> > WesTralia wrote:
> > >
> > > Warren Bell wrote:
> > > >
> > > > With all the stuff I'm hearing about Windows XP and the WPA, that will
> > > > require you to have MS activate your PC after makeing any hardware
> > > > changes, makes me wish there was somthing out there to compete with
> > > > Windows. I mean really compete.
> > > >
> > > > Linux is a great OS and is getting better all the time, but the average
> > > > computer user won't want to use it. What I think Linux needs is a
> > > > light, user freindly version that anyone can use. Somthing that's
> > > > stripped of most of the server functions and is made for a single or
> > > > multi user home system. Somthing that even the untechnical user can use
> > > > without too many problems. Here are some things that I think would be
> > > > needed to make this work:
> > > >
> > > > - A standard GUI that all Linux distros could use.
> > > > - A GUI that's feels lighter and faster.
> > > > - All the most used admin (root) functions available from point and
> > > > click.
> > > > - All makers of the lighter distro to follow standards so all the
> > > > distros are similar.
> > > > - Of course, more programs that people need for everyday use.
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to see Linux come out with somthing that would really compete
> > > > with windows and give people who arn't tech savvy a choice. Any
> > > > thoughts on this? Any distros that are trying to move twards an OS like
> > > > this?
> > >
> > > Sounds to me that you are describing the Mac OSX. I haven't used it or
> > > even seen it in "person" but I like the idea of the Aqua GUI, Unix kernel,
> > > and the fact that you can use either the command line or the GUI for real
> > > work.
> > >
> > > I just wish the Mac people would port OSX to the PC and sell the OSX separately.
> > >
> > > In fact, that's my quiestion for the day: why don't they?
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > Apple can't get out of the obsolete Hardware <--> OS permanently tied together
> > mode of thinking.
> >
>
> As usual, you are wrong about Apple.
Then I suppose you can name a long list of Apple software products that aren't
tied to Apple hardware....
>
> > --
> > Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> <snip of obnoxiously long signature>
> --
> Rick
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux needs a standard, user proof distro
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:02:35 -0500
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> Rick wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > >
> > > WesTralia wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Warren Bell wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > With all the stuff I'm hearing about Windows XP and the WPA, that will
> > > > > require you to have MS activate your PC after makeing any hardware
> > > > > changes, makes me wish there was somthing out there to compete with
> > > > > Windows. I mean really compete.
> > > > >
> > > > > Linux is a great OS and is getting better all the time, but the average
> > > > > computer user won't want to use it. What I think Linux needs is a
> > > > > light, user freindly version that anyone can use. Somthing that's
> > > > > stripped of most of the server functions and is made for a single or
> > > > > multi user home system. Somthing that even the untechnical user can use
> > > > > without too many problems. Here are some things that I think would be
> > > > > needed to make this work:
> > > > >
> > > > > - A standard GUI that all Linux distros could use.
> > > > > - A GUI that's feels lighter and faster.
> > > > > - All the most used admin (root) functions available from point and
> > > > > click.
> > > > > - All makers of the lighter distro to follow standards so all the
> > > > > distros are similar.
> > > > > - Of course, more programs that people need for everyday use.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd like to see Linux come out with somthing that would really compete
> > > > > with windows and give people who arn't tech savvy a choice. Any
> > > > > thoughts on this? Any distros that are trying to move twards an OS like
> > > > > this?
> > > >
> > > > Sounds to me that you are describing the Mac OSX. I haven't used it or
> > > > even seen it in "person" but I like the idea of the Aqua GUI, Unix kernel,
> > > > and the fact that you can use either the command line or the GUI for real
> > > > work.
> > > >
> > > > I just wish the Mac people would port OSX to the PC and sell the OSX
>separately.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, that's my quiestion for the day: why don't they?
> > > >
> > > > --
> > >
> > > Apple can't get out of the obsolete Hardware <--> OS permanently tied together
> > > mode of thinking.
> > >
> >
> > As usual, you are wrong about Apple.
>
> Then I suppose you can name a long list of Apple software products that aren't
> tied to Apple hardware....
>
Um, MacOS runs on Macintosh. It is a hardware/software combo, at least
for now. When will you recognize that and quit bitching about it? Apps
for Macintosh run on, um Macintosh.
Now tell me what non x86 or x86 clone amchines Windows runs on. Or
Solaris.
> >
> > > --
> > > Aaron R. Kulkis
> >
> > <snip of obnoxiously long signature>
> > --
> > Rick
>
> --
--
Rick
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: ATTN: Outlook Express Users and Virus's
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:01:19 GMT
On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:16:07 +1200, Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Use a valid email address to make yourselfa accountable for you posting.
>
If you have more than 5 brains cells at your disposal, you'd be able to figure
out how to remove the anti-spam crap and e-mail me.
If you'd be kind enough to remove all the assholes off the internet, I've be
happy to post without an alias. In the meantime, I use an alias to prevent such
assholes from doing stuff like looking my address up in the phone book and
ordering, fraudulantly, crap that I have to go out of my way to return.
Get over it and quit being such a jerk.
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: the mismeasure of man
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:11:24 GMT
Anonymous wrote:
>
> > If you are talking about computing...then that's a different matter.
> > ^^^^^^^^^
>
> then the emperor has already won...
> jackie 'anakin' tokeman
Even if he has, which is quite debatable, you know that the
mighty can still fall.
By the way, just what are you tokin'?
Chris
--
[ Do Not Make Illegal Copies of This Message ]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Mircosoft Tax
Date: 31 Mar 2001 14:09:35 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 31 Mar 2001 08:07:14 GMT,
Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 28 Mar 2001 17:46:09 GMT, Perry Pip wrote:
>>On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 04:04:32 GMT,
>>T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Wait a minute!! Where is my loose reasoning?? I never said I was
>>proving anything. I was only responding to Donovan's claim that "MS
>>prices too high" is "unsubstantiated nonsnese". I have provided at
>>least enough evidence to show the idea is more than "unsubstantiated
>>nonsnese", but I never said I proved it.
>
>Perhaps "unsubstantiated nonsense" may have sounded a little strong, but
>the comment was made in a particular context.
>
>There seems to be at least *some* evidence that their prices may be too
>high, but the fact that hardware prices are dropping (in itself a
>contentious claim, we'll take it as a "fact" for now ... ) is not in
>itself such a piece of evidence at all.
>
>>Donovan seems to be taking the extreme position that if you can't
>>absolutely prove something, you should never assume it under any
>>circumstance.
>
>No, I am suggesting that bold claims about "prices being too high" need
>to be accompanied by logical arguments if they are to convince anyone
>who doesn't already hold that view.
>
>> This may apply to his profession of abstract theoretical
>>mathematics, but you can't apply that type of rigor to a social
>>science like economics.
>
>You can still apply some rigor, indeed (for example) criminal courts do
>this.
>
>Moreover, there's a such thing as a "presumption of innocence", it's
>generally considered poor form to make accusations based purely on
>conjecture.
>
>>Donovan is working on his PhD in math...so he thinks the rest of us
>>are morons becuase we don't apply abstract logical rigor to the real
>>world.
>
>No, I don't think "the rest of [you] are morons". You'll have to take my
>word for this.
>
>This is an obvious straw man -- I agree that it's an extreme position
>but I disagree with your assertion that it is a position I hold.
>
>In fact, it is impossible to rigorously prove anything outside of some
>abstract universe (eg mathematics) which explains why we must make
>compromises in the name of pragmatism when thinking about the real world.
>
>However, I don't see a need to descend to arguments like "Windows isn't
>getting cheaper, therefore MS are price fixing", or "Hardware is getting
>cheaper and Windows isn't, therefore Windows is too expensive".
>
>
>--
>Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
>elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: Java, the "Dot-Com" Language?
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:03:45 GMT
"2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9a3om1$6li$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> J Perry Fecteau wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> >i actually said the linux thing about dell a while back... they could
> >do it with their own intel servers! they're the only pc company their
> >size that won't suffer from cannibalization by adopting linux.. but
> >michael dell refuses to remove his lips from bill gates' cock two
> >seconds to at least think about it!
>
> As I've stated, Dell sells its $1000- entry level server on Red Hat Linux at
> no extra cost, while Windows 2000 costs about a $1000 more.
>
> I'm talking about the midrange server that Dell is looking to conquer.
>
> Dell has far superior state-of-the-art OEM assembly factories. Also, great
> integration of its web site for selling, with customized pages for each
> approved-for-purchasing model for each big customer.
>
> Sun would provide good brand ambiance.
>
> >as far as sun dying... DREAM ON!!
>
> Who said dying? Sun would live on as a software company like Microsoft.
> Before the downturn, Sun had only about $2 billion annual profits, the same
> as Dell.
>
> After the downturn, who knows what Sun will report. The stock is sinking
> through the floor due to investor profit worries.
>
> Sun has to do a better job of selling enterprise software based on the Java
> platform, where it has the inside advantage.
If they can quickly evolve the EJB standard so it's not a cobbled-together
mess of hacks (although EJB 2.0 is slightly better) perhaps they will
have a chance. With EJB 1.1 and mostly with EJB 2.0, this will never happen
because it's just too poor of a spec.
-c
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: New worm infests Linux machines/Exposes root backdoor
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:06:37 GMT
"Karel Jansens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Chad Myers wrote:
> >
> >
> > This is the biggest problem with most linvocates or Unixvocates.
> > They have never used anything but Win3.x or Win9x which all are DOS
> > based crap.
> >
> Weren't you in the crowd back then, shouting that Windows 95 did not
> have DOS underneath? That it was an operating system on its own?
Nope. Although, I will say, however, that Win95 does, in fact, have it's
VMM and "kernel" in some respects. When Win95 is running, it's essentially
a different OS. However, the kernel design is horrible and it doesn't
have very good (if any) process isolation and doesn't restrict processes
from direct hardware access or switching Rings in the processor which
is probably the #1 reason why it's so unstable. Incompetent ISVs take
advantage of the openness of Win9x and exploit it and do so very poorly
and cause system instability.
> What made you change your mind?
I didn't.
-c
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux needs a standard, user proof distro
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:09:01 -0500
Rick wrote:
>
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> >
> > Rick wrote:
> > >
> > > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > WesTralia wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Warren Bell wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With all the stuff I'm hearing about Windows XP and the WPA, that will
> > > > > > require you to have MS activate your PC after makeing any hardware
> > > > > > changes, makes me wish there was somthing out there to compete with
> > > > > > Windows. I mean really compete.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Linux is a great OS and is getting better all the time, but the average
> > > > > > computer user won't want to use it. What I think Linux needs is a
> > > > > > light, user freindly version that anyone can use. Somthing that's
> > > > > > stripped of most of the server functions and is made for a single or
> > > > > > multi user home system. Somthing that even the untechnical user can use
> > > > > > without too many problems. Here are some things that I think would be
> > > > > > needed to make this work:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - A standard GUI that all Linux distros could use.
> > > > > > - A GUI that's feels lighter and faster.
> > > > > > - All the most used admin (root) functions available from point and
> > > > > > click.
> > > > > > - All makers of the lighter distro to follow standards so all the
> > > > > > distros are similar.
> > > > > > - Of course, more programs that people need for everyday use.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd like to see Linux come out with somthing that would really compete
> > > > > > with windows and give people who arn't tech savvy a choice. Any
> > > > > > thoughts on this? Any distros that are trying to move twards an OS like
> > > > > > this?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds to me that you are describing the Mac OSX. I haven't used it or
> > > > > even seen it in "person" but I like the idea of the Aqua GUI, Unix kernel,
> > > > > and the fact that you can use either the command line or the GUI for real
> > > > > work.
> > > > >
> > > > > I just wish the Mac people would port OSX to the PC and sell the OSX
>separately.
> > > > >
> > > > > In fact, that's my quiestion for the day: why don't they?
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Apple can't get out of the obsolete Hardware <--> OS permanently tied together
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > > mode of thinking.
> > > >
> > >
> > > As usual, you are wrong about Apple.
> >
> > Then I suppose you can name a long list of Apple software products that aren't
> > tied to Apple hardware....
> >
>
> Um, MacOS runs on Macintosh. It is a hardware/software combo, at least
That's what I said. See the line I underlined with "^^^^^^^^" above.
> for now. When will you recognize that and quit bitching about it? Apps
> for Macintosh run on, um Macintosh.
See above.
>
> Now tell me what non x86 or x86 clone amchines Windows runs on. Or
> Solaris.
Solaris runs on Sparc and on x86. Maybe more.
Besides, Solaris is merely ONE member of the Unix family.
If you want, you can go to Sun's website and download Solaris for x86.
http://www.sun.com/solaris/downloads.html
>
> > >
> > > > --
> > > > Aaron R. Kulkis
> > >
> > > <snip of obnoxiously long signature>
> > > --
> > > Rick
> >
> > --
>
> --
> Rick
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: Warren Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux needs a standard, user proof distro
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 07:00:38 -0800
Rick wrote:
>
> WesTralia wrote:
> >
> > Warren Bell wrote:
> > >
> > > With all the stuff I'm hearing about Windows XP and the WPA, that will
> > > require you to have MS activate your PC after makeing any hardware
> > > changes, makes me wish there was somthing out there to compete with
> > > Windows. I mean really compete.
> > >
> > > Linux is a great OS and is getting better all the time, but the average
> > > computer user won't want to use it. What I think Linux needs is a
> > > light, user freindly version that anyone can use. Somthing that's
> > > stripped of most of the server functions and is made for a single or
> > > multi user home system. Somthing that even the untechnical user can use
> > > without too many problems. Here are some things that I think would be
> > > needed to make this work:
> > >
> > > - A standard GUI that all Linux distros could use.
>
> What do you mean by standard? Any distro can use any GUI.
I know, and there's a lot of them. Windows has a common GUI. You know
what to expect when you jump on any windows computer. When you start
mixing GUIs it gets confusing. It also seems more grounded if there's
one set GUI. If Suzie's manager at work set up all the machines with
fvwm and she has KDE at home it's going to be confusing for people.
> > > - A GUI that's feels lighter and faster.
>
> Faster and lighter than what? I use fvwm2 with GNOME and KDE libs/apps.
> Its pretly light and snappy.
>
Yeah that is. But it doesn't looks as klean and together as KDE ore
Gnome. But I just upgraded my machine to the latest XFree86 and KDE2. I
stand corrected. It runs pretty sweet.
> > > - All the most used admin (root) functions available from point and
> > > click.
>
> Since Im not a sys admin, I may be wrong, but arent three GUI tools for
> most fo those things?
>
Yeah but they don't work flawlessly yet. But they're getting there..
> > > - All makers of the lighter distro to follow standards so all the
> > > distros are similar.
>
> If all the distros are similar, why have different distros?
>
I think we should still have different distros for the regular users,
but maybe a light, easy version for somthing untechnical people can use
now. Somthing fool proof that can give Windows a run for it's money.
Maybe a Winux if you will :)
> > > - Of course, more programs that people need for everyday use.
>
> They're coming.
>
> > >
> > > I'd like to see Linux come out with somthing that would really compete
> > > with windows and give people who arn't tech savvy a choice. Any
> > > thoughts on this? Any distros that are trying to move twards an OS like
> > > this?
>
> Mandrake is one of the easiest around to install and use.
>
> >
> > Sounds to me that you are describing the Mac OSX. I haven't used it or
> > even seen it in "person" but I like the idea of the Aqua GUI, Unix kernel,
> > and the fact that you can use either the command line or the GUI for real
> > work.
> >
>
> From many reports, MacOS X is really for leading edge people at the
> moment. By summer it should have the consumer bugs worked out.
>
> > I just wish the Mac people would port OSX to the PC and sell the OSX separately.
> >
> > In fact, that's my quiestion for the day: why don't they?
> >
>
> Becasue Apple makes most of its money from hardware. They have
> historically had great OS's and expensive hardware with big profit
> margins. If they port to x86, the hardware sales go away.
>
> --
> Rick
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Arrrrgh! Hoist the Jolly Roger!
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:56:31 GMT
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> "GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > I disagree on the desktop argument. By serving install fests in our
> > local mall, our organization has made it public that there is an
> > alternative to microsofts o/s. Many people aren't aware of Linux
> > because no one has enough money to advertise Linux during prime time
> > TV
>
> Do you read newspapers? Linux got so much free advertisiment that its name
> is clearly recognizable to anyone with a miniscule interest in computers.
People recognize Madonna more readily. All that "free advertisement"
merely mentioned Linux in the context of stock prices and hacking
incidents. It said nothing about what Linux really is.
--
[ Do Not Make Illegal Copies of This Message ]
------------------------------
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