Linux-Advocacy Digest #314, Volume #27 Sat, 24 Jun 00 16:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh (Leslie Mikesell)
Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS? ("KLH")
Re: Where is Linux going? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451719.328^-.00000000000006 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft Ruling
Too Harsh (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Something wrong with linux :-( ("KLH")
Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451719.328^-.00000000000006 ("Joe Malloy")
Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft Ruling
Too Harsh (FM)
Re: Help setting up a home network. (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Linsux as a desktop platform ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) ("TimL")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:08:35 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>If I want Mac hardware with Linux OS installed, I have no option
>but to pay for MacOS anyway.
>
>I do not know anything about Dell having duty to sell you non-Windows
>computer. Care to show the contract predating deals with MS, in which Dell
>will sell you non-Windows computer?
I was able to buy a Dell pre-loaded with Unix SysVr4 (a very nice
customized version, too) in the early 90's. At a time that
in retrospect coincides with the MS deal, they dropped all
support for their unix. This was especially distressing because
I had just found a bug in the OS that could be triggered by
an application I wanted to use.
>Dell and MS have freedom to sign whatever deals they please, provided
>they don't violate word given to other people. Since I don't think
>Dell promised you meeting your desire to have Dell-produced computer
>without Windows, I don't think you have valid complaint.
But Dell has a valid complaint if they were forced into making
this deal. Didn't they provide a deposition at the trial?
Why shouldn't the affected customers also complain?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Subject: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:17:47 GMT
I have heard that upgrading Linux is a bit of a nightmare, so it was with
some tripidation I started the upgrade of Linux Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1.
The upgrade itself went relatively smoothly, apart from two packages that
had errors. They didn't look like important, so I continued.
The 'grub' bootstrap package duplicated the LILO entries and added new
entries. I tried to reduce the entries and found the first wart in the
installation program. I found every time I selected one entry, I kept
getting a dialog for another entry. Anyway, I let that be and tried a
reboot.
The first reboot died as initrd was missing; so I tried 'fallback'
and got the system to boot Linux. I edited the menu.lst file for grub and
tidied up the entries to my liking. Grub does have a means to edit the
entries on boot... except it doesn't seem to save the edits made!
Once booted, I found myself running Linux Mandrake 7.1. I logged in, and
started up X, and found the devastation made by the installer!
i) Half the icons/menu entries I originally had were gone. Entries like
KEdit for instance.
ii) Log/Text files were assigned to StarOffice! Huh!
iii) On shutdown a new interface (ippp0) generated a Failed message.
iv) Devices assigned icons were duplicated; the DOS disk was renamed and
another icon added. I thought this kind of bug was specifically a Windows
one!
This is very disappointing. It's not a disaster, but no upgrade should
'remove' menu entries/icons, or reassign file type to different
applications! If this is what I've found so far, I wonder what else is
lurking!
Pete
------------------------------
From: "KLH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Do you people really think that GNU/Linux is a great OS?
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:13:57 -0700
Bobby D. Bryant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> KLH wrote:
>
> > Okay, the subject line definitely sounded like flamebait, but its not.
>
> Actually, none of use really think it's great. We just say so to
aggravate
> Steve.
>
Heh.
>
> > A true advocate would have to admit:
> >
> > * that the Unix model doesn't extend well into the graphical user
> > interface
>
> Hmmm. Mine seems to be working OK.
Well, the dichotomy I've talked about before. They make the OS less seamless
and rather rugged.
>
>
>
> > * that having two competing desktop enviroments will be causing
> > inconveniance to users for years.
>
> Babelfish-->"Choice is bad."
No, choice is good. But I don't think this is the way we should have choice.
I think choice should be in the configuration file. Flame wars aside, the
two desktop projects are pretty much the same unless you dive into the
details. Choosing between one or the other will often depend on what apps
you want to use, rather than which one you like better.
<adjacent-point>One of the largest differences between those who use KDE and
those who use GNOME is that those who use KDE like using KDE excellent file
manager/web browser, and it has somewhat better integration and usability.
People who use GNOME tend to like its excellent theme capability,
extensibilty, and its wide selection of high quality applications. So a
rough summary would be KDE==internet, KDE==other apps.</adjacent-point>
>
>
> > * that perhaps we need to get rid of these middle-level C-like
languages
> > that make it easier for even great programmers to introduce memory leaks
and
> > core dumps into large applications that we depend on.
>
> Are you even vaguely aware how many languages run on Linux?
Yes, vaguely.
C, C++, Java?, Python, Perl, Lisp, Scheme, Haskell, Eiffel, Bash, Korn, Zsh,
(other shells), Basic, Sather, Ada, Pascal, Fortran, Asm, + many more.
But if you haven't noticed, the vast majority of the code base is based on C
or even lesser so, C++.
But then again, perhaps writing apps with one of them languages might evolve
GNU/Linux to use these languages more. I think Gtk+ has bindings for scheme
and haskell. But still, using a different compiler will increase the number
of dependencies for people who would otherwise be willing to compile it... I
just don't know how feasable it is.
>
>
> > * that there are so many ways in which GNU/Linux can be improved that
it
> > would be useful to start over from scratch and design a new OS light
years
> > ahead of what we have now.
>
> Great! Let us know when you have some working code.
Uh, just below this I said this was a "theoretical discussion".
>
>
> > I guess as a disclaimer I am not much of a programmer (yet) so see this
as a
> > theoretical discussion.
>
> Hence your criticism of the languages used.
I was expecting this.
>
>
> > I guess I am asking, do you really think GNU/Linux is a great OS or do
you
> > think there is enough room for improvement for work on a new, largely
> > incompatible, OS be worthwhile? And if you are in the opinion of the
latter,
> > how would you build such an OS? What programming language would you
prefer
> > it be built on? What other technologies would you want it to use?
>
> Several others are in progress. Maybe I'll use one, when the
> price/features/reliability/support reach the appropriate thresholds.
>
> As for what language, I don't really care. If I were going to be a major
> contributor, of course I'd want it to be in *my* favorite language.
Otherwise,
> who cares? It all compiles down to machine code, ya know. Let the
developers
> use what they please, and judge them on their results.
>
> Bobby Bryant
> Austin, Texas
>
>
Thanks for your opinion.
Best Regards,
Kevin Holmes
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Where is Linux going?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:21:33 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Goofy root) wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>By the end of this year Corel will have the largest installed base of
>Linux workstations. The reason is simple. Corel's office suite works
>great and there is no other vendor that offers an equivalent product.
>Corel workgroups will replace Windows workgroups throughout most
>organizations because of cost. Managers worldwide will save corporations
>hundreds of millions of dollars by installing Corel workgroups that
>access NT applications via thin clients and workgroups that use
>WordPerfect 2000. Besides the move by corporations, the US Education
>system will use Corel because of cost. RedHat and others Linux
>distributions won't be considered because they don't have the
>Applications.
Corel is in trouble financially. You think they are going to replace
Windows desktops? I tried the Corel installation, it hung on install. I've
heard that story a load of times on their own USENET group.
Corel failed to buy Borland, once Borland shareholders realised Corel's
stock price was plumetting. They pulled the plug.
>As an investor I own some CORL and will continue to build a position in
>CORL until Microsoft makes its announcement that it is going to port to
>Linux. I'm waiting for the current correction to bottom before buying
>ORCL. I don't see any reason to own RedHat or VA Linux or
>Caldera...because profits are driven by sales and the leaders are
>already well defined.
Is CORL Corel shares? If so, you're losing money hand over fist.
>As an integrator I'm not of the opinion that you can forget NT or
>Windows applications any time soon. I am very happy that UNIX (the best
>OS ever) has finally made its way to the desktop.
It ain't there yet. There's a lot of inertia UNIX will have to overcome to
make people switch to UNIX.
Pete
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451719.328^-.00000000000006
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:28:53 GMT
2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> for $DEITY's sake, can't you guys just:
> o Stop digesting each other
Sure I COULD do that. I did for over a year to see if Malloy would
reciprocate. He didn't. He claims that he did, but his postings
prove otherwise.
> o Stop rising to the bait
What do you consider "bait"?
> o Kiss and make up
Surely you jest.
> ?????
>
> You really keep going round in circles...
Maybe Malloy thinks that he's keeping me from a "holy mission to
fight and destroy all that is associated with MS and Windows",
the way Jeff Glatt does.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To:
misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:24:48 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>> Abuse of power should certainly be a crime.
>>>
>>>>>Which is why I think the judge in this case should be jailed for
>>>>>crimes against freedom of contract. Because if he can interfere
>>>>>in a voluntary consensual contract of two business, morally this
>>>>>is no different than his right for me and you to agree to split
>>>>>dinner, even if one of us ordered a more expensive entree. It
>>>>>is the same issue, the same morality.
>>>>
>>>>And so is your right to sell yourself into slavery, or sell
>>>>your body as a prostitute, or sell drugs at some agreed-upon
>>>>price. These, and abusing the power of a monopoly just
>>>>happen to be illegal.
>>>
>>>I don't see how what MS did is like buying slave.
>
>>Because, like the other things in the list, it is
>>explictly illegal.
>
>So, if in your understanding buying slave was legal, it would
>be all OK.
>
>I think I can safely assume that it's not the case. Ergo,
>you mean it's somehow _unfair_.
>
>But you did not write it was unfair. You wrote it was illegal.
Yes, I did not make a moral judgement here. Thomas Jefferson
did not get hauled into US courts for owning slaves. Anyone
doing it today would.
>Thus, you're trying to create impression of unfair via resorting
>to illegal.
>
>Bunkus. Next.
Illegal is the issue. Hence the mention of drugs, which
might also have been legal in some other historical context
or location, and which might be easier to divorce from the
moral issues.
>>That is, there are specific
>>laws prohibiting these particular things that override
>>your right to agree to any contract you want.
>
>Yeah, and those rights have popped out of thin air,
>not from _ethical position_, right?
>
>No?
The laws address specific problems relevant to specific
times. It has become apparent in recent history that
allowing companies to abuse the power they obtain as
the result of a monopoly is not a good thing, and like
the other instances I mentioned, it is currently illegal.
If you have a problem with business law, you need to
address it on that level instead of handwaving about
morality. However, if you read a few of the depositions
from the vendors on the other side of the MS contracts
I think you may change your mind about the morality
as well.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft
Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:29:57 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>The problem is that Microsoft are not "subsidizing" anyone. They are not
>>*bribing* the OEMs, they are blackmailing them.
>
>How? By threatening to _revoke a discount_?
Which of the vendor depositions explained the threats in
those terms?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "KLH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Something wrong with linux :-(
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:33:31 -0700
You are looking for emacs.
Definitely emacs :)
Best Regards
------------------------------
From: "Joe Malloy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451719.328^-.00000000000006
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:44:49 -0400
"2:1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> for $DEITY's sake, can't you guys just:
> o Stop digesting each other
I challenge you or anybody else to digest Tholen -- you can't, he's
indigestible!
> o Stop rising to the bait
But when the bait keeps rising....?
> o Kiss and make up
Gag me with an eating implement!
> ?????
!!!!!
> You really keep going round in circles...
Yes, would squares be better?
:)
- Joe
--
"USB, idiot, stands for Universal Serial Bus. There is no power on the
output socket of any USB port I have ever seen" - Bob Germer
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (FM)
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics,alt.society.liberalism
Subject: Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft
Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 24 Jun 2000 19:21:00 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Henry Blaskowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> found the guts to say:
>Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> When everyone is offered a discount, it's no longer a discount, it's
>> something that becomes a must-have if you want to compete. Microsoft's
>> threat to remove these "discounts" is, because of their power, essentially
>> a threat to put the company in question out of business ( especially in
>> more extreme cases where they threatened to refuse to distribute Windows
>> to the OEM, period )
>> Clearly, threatening to put an OEM out of business is a restraint of trade.
>They produce a product. Other people want it. Does the other people
>wanting it imply that the other people own it? Or do you think the
>producer owns it and should be able to set the terms for it's release?
>will you apply the same principles to your life?
Microsoft does not own the products they sell
(more exactly, license). The government grants
them the exclusive rights to their intellectual
"properties" which is the source of the demand
they capitalized on. It's funny how some dumb
libertarians are arguing for MS, a company that
wouldn't have grown to such proportions without
government protection.
Dan.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Help setting up a home network.
Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:50:26 -0500
In article <8j240d$ggi$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>A friend of mine who uses Windoze has just got a new computer to replace
>the one he already had. Both of them have network cards, and the old
>one has a modem. He wants to set up a small network between the two
>computers so that they can both use the same dial-up modem to connect to the
>local Internet Service Provider. Is this easy to do using Mandrake
>(probably 6 or 7)? How would they go about doing it? Would the installation
>process guide you through setting it up?
You probably should read the appropriate HOWTO's first. Start
with file:/usr/doc/HOWTO/HTML/en/Firewall-HOWTO-1.html
after installing Mandrake. It will boil down to adding
something like:
echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
ipchains -A forward -s 192.168.1.0/255.255.255.0 -i ppp0 -j MASQ
Then giving the other machine(s) address(es) in the range
used above or setting up a dhcp server if you want laptops
to configure automatically when added to the net.
>He already has some kind of cable connecting his Windoze PC to his
>girlfriend's labtop she borrowed from work, which allows them to see
>each other's hard-disk. Would he need to buy more cables, or hardware to
>set up the network he wants?
If it is a single 10BaseT cable (an 8-wire modular jack on each
end) configured as a crossover connector you can only connect
two machines at a time back-to-back. It will take a hub
(fairly cheap these days) to connect more than two. If it
is using coax you can just add a tee connector and more wire.
The samba package on Linux will allow windows network clients
to share the files and printers.
>By the way, he also has one of the latest versions of SUSE too. If this
>any easier than Mandrake.
They are pretty much all the same once the system is installed, but
they are improving rapidly. I'd go for the latest release you
can find which will probably be Mandrake 7.1.
>The main reason I suspect he keeps hold of Windoze is because he cannot
>play some of the games he wants to. These run on Windoze 95, and since
>Windoze 95 is built on DOS is it possible to run it under WINE or some
>other emulation?
Some things work well under WINE and some don't. It will come with
Mandrake so just try them out.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linsux as a desktop platform
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:49:10 -0500
On 23 Jun 2000 14:10:22 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (void)
wrote:
>On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:56:38 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>Sorry; here we're defining easy as Windows Terminal Server setup,
>>where you install it, then install the client, then put in the machine
>>name of the server on the client, all via the GUI. Compared to that,
>>I just don't think it's easy.
>
>So the install procedure is one-size-fits-all?
>
>*shudder*
Huh? It's either installed, or it isn't. What's complicated about
that? And on the client, the install fits on two floppy disks (and I
think it actually asks for only one of them, but then it's been a
while...)
------------------------------
From: "TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:06:16 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) wrote:
<some stuff>
This is rather unfortunate. Perhaps you should switch to a different distribution?
/TimL
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
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