Linux-Advocacy Digest #335, Volume #27 Sun, 25 Jun 00 16:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: stability of culture of helpfulness (Tim Palmer)
Re: Boring (Tim Palmer)
Re: Something wrong with linux :-( (Tim Palmer)
Re: Windows98 (Tim Palmer)
Re: Something wrong with linux :-( (Tim Palmer)
Re: Lost Cause Theater!!! (Cihl)
Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh (Loren Petrich)
Re: Lost Cause Theater!!! (Cihl)
Re: The Linux Challenge ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh (Loren Petrich)
Re: Lost Cause Theater!!! (Cihl)
Re: Comparing Windows NT and UNIX System Management (Cihl)
Re: Something wrong with linux :-( (Cihl)
RE: Microsoft and General Stupidity ("Pedro Iglesias")
Re: Yes, commercial OS are supported (Michael Marion)
Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh (Loren Petrich)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: stability of culture of helpfulness
Date: 25 Jun 2000 15:41:44 -0500
On 19 Jun 2000 15:42:22 EDT, Dances With Crows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:02:32 GMT, Oliver Baker
><<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> shouted forth into the ether:
>>Although I'm neither business savvy nor computer savvy, I'm writing an
>>article for a trade magazine on the subject of a big company that has
>
>Interesting.
>
>>The business people at this
>>company consider Linux a great way to save money on computer support
>>costs--not just because they believe it to be more trouble-free, but
>>because they feel they can just log onto the net and get expert free
>>help any time, thus eliminating the need for most of their support
>>staff.
>>
>>1)Does this make sense--that they could reduce their support staff? (and
>>if so, by how much? if anybody cares to make an estimate.)
>
>Not really, at least not in the short term. Free help from Usenet is a
>mixed bag. Sometimes you get exactly what you're looking for right away,
>sometimes you get misleading information, sometimes you get flames,
>sometimes you get completely ignored. Also, in the beginning of the
>switchover, there would be a big need for some support staff onsite/easily
>reachable as lots of users/admins run into common problems and/or get
>confused.
>
>After users settle in and get used to reading man pages/HTML docs,
...and after they get used to using ^P, ^N, ^B, and ^F insted of the arrow
keys, and after they get used
to having PgUp and PgDown only work sometiems, and after they get used
to using DEL insted of BACKSPACE and
after they get used to waiting for Netscape and after they get used to
tiping "mount" befoar loding a CD....
>support costs would
...go thru the roof. Youd shure make the UNIX gooru's happy, but the normle users
will hate halving to rede MAN pages all the time and use VI to eddit text
files.
>drop. I think companies could have fewer people, but they
>might need more competent people. (2 Unix BOFH-types at $90,000 each is
>less expensive than 6 tech-support Bobs at $30,000 each, factoring in
>health insurance/benefits/etc.) ICBW on all that, of course.
But you'd nead 20 teck-support Bob's to handel all the users hoo are going to be
calling to ask how to do things that wer eesy for them on Windos.
>
>>2) Is this culture of on-line helpfulness impervious to a)increasing
>>numbers of Linux users, b)increasing numbers of queries from Linux users
>>at companies who--it might be perceived--could afford to hire people to
>>generate in-house the answers they are instead getting through the
>>kindness of strangers.
>
>Good question. <soapbox>I believe that I am *required* to help people
>with Linux support, as my code's full of nasty quick hacks and I'm too
Doant' beet yourself up. Everyother Open Sore's programmer's coad is full
of nasty hack's and bugs to
Lie-nux is all maid up of nasty hack's thats' why it sucks so mutch.
>poor to give loads of cash to the FSF, yet I need to give back to the
>community in some way. As such, if I can help somebody, I will, whether
>they're Joe Home User or Jane Corporate User. Linux has been built on a
>culture of altruism and knowledge-sharing; we should keep it up as much as
>possible and encourage those who've learned something to share it.
></soapbox>
>
>That said, I'd be more motivated, less sarcastic/bitchy, and able to help
>more people if somebody were paying me by the hour to solve Linux
>problems.
>
Maybe youd be abal to rite better coad to.
------------------------------
From: Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Boring
Date: 25 Jun 2000 15:41:54 -0500
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:33:40 -0400, Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Tim Palmer wrote:
>>
>> Charlie Ebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Jorge Cueto wrote:
>> >>This newsgroup is starting to be bored ... I guess GNU/Linux has finally
>> >>won and Windows advocates can't just debate anymore :-)
>> >
>> >
>> >I think the real problem with advocacy is that Linux has won.
>>
>> Uhm, no. Not even close.
>>
>> >What is Microsoft going to do in the next 5 years but die.
>>
>> The government can't do anything to them until the appeals proscess is over. By
>then, this whole
>> UNIX revival thing will halve blone over.
>
>With Unix on top.
...of the dumpster.
>
>
>>
>> >
>> >If people don't think the KDE is a better desktop than W2k then
>> >what are they going to say when KDE2 is out soon?
>> >
>>
>> That it sucks. Just like the KDE befor it. You can put Windos like environmant
>ontop of UNIX, but
>> thats' still UNIX under theare, and you can't get rid of the limmitations of UNIX
>except by getting
>> rid of the UNIX. That is why UNIX+KDE fales now just like UNIX without it did, and
>UNIX+KDE2 will
>> continnue to fale in the future.
>>
>> Just face it: UNIX is the PAST. Leave it in the 1970s whear it belongs.
>>
>> >I think the Microsoft community realizes that there is no competing with
>> >Linux as the Linux community comes out with a new version roughly once
>> >every 6-9 months.
>>
>> Yeah, and you accuse Windwos of making peopal upgrade.
>>
>> >This in comparison to Windows 2-4 year revisionary
>> >history,,, with complete writeups from the ground floor up.
>> >
>> >Charlie
>> >
>
>
>--
>Aaron R. Kulkis
>Unix Systems Engineer
>ICQ # 3056642
>
>H: Knackos...you're a retard.
>
>A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
>
>B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
>
>C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
> sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
> that she doesn't like.
>
>D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
>
>E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (D) above.
>
>F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
> response until their behavior improves.
>
>G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
------------------------------
From: Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Something wrong with linux :-(
Date: 25 Jun 2000 15:42:04 -0500
On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:40:24 GMT, Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>2:1 wrote:
>>
>> > The reason might be that there is no typewriter-ish software for Linux
>> > available yet, like Word on Windows. For that we must wait until KDE2
>> > with KOffice comes out, i think. I've tried Abiword, but for some
>> > reason i simply don't like it.
>>
>> There's star office and WP. I think I just thought she wouldn't like
>> having to do stuff like mount floppies in order to use them.
>
>You're right about that. I know of supermount, but that still needs
>more work. I, for example, have an internal ATAPI Zip-drive. Sometimes
>the disk won't come out, and i have to get a term, and log in as root
>just to unmount the zip. I hope they work it out soon.
>
>> Although, I don't think there's anything she would do that would require
>> a command line.
>
>This shouldn't be much of a problem if you set it up correctly for
>her. A simple user doesn't really need the CLI any more. It's more of
>a problem if she would have to set it up herself. There's still more
>work to be done there. It doesn't matter though, we have all the time
>in the world to get it right.
>
>> It's wierd, I just felt a little uneasy about giving her a Linux system.
>> Mabey it's something wrong with me, not linux.
>
>Well, i can see where you're coming from. Linux is generally a
>powerful OS, but it's still a little awkward right now. A little rough
>around the edges, not enough polish, so to speak. No stable browser,
>occasional CLI use, among other little annoyances. (I'm using MDK7.1,
>by the way)
>
>I, for one, am going to wait a couple more months before i start
>recommending Linux to anybody i know, because i really want them to
>like it when they first see it. As i have said in other posts, i have
>really high expectations for KDE2. You were probably right for
>disadvising Linux at this point.
>
>--
>¨I live!¨
>¨I hunger!¨
>¨Run, coward!¨
> -- The Sinistar
------------------------------
From: Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows98
Date: 25 Jun 2000 15:42:14 -0500
On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:42:16 -0500, Tim Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Why aren't you posting from you'r Wobbly adress you FUCKING COMMY!
>David Cancio wrote:
>
>> Why can't I use my hardware (Windows 98 targeted most of it) at full power ?
>> Yeah, I know GNU/Linux does support most of the hardware, but a lot of
>> vendors add nice features that are only available with Windows 98 drivers.
>
>Your post really sounds like a thinly veiled troll.
>
>Well, the first thing you don't mention while you're talking
>about windows 98 being able to "drive your hardware at full
>power" (whoa) is that WINDOWS DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.
>
>How many times do you need to reinstall the piece of shit before
>you realize that not everyone LIKES spending hours upon hours of
>their time reinstalling software, being forced to look at ads,
>constantly being asked stupid questions by the os, and having my
>personal information sent out over the internet by half a dozen
>crapware programs? I don't use windows for the same reasons I
>don't spend all my time with with car salesmen, or stick my face
>in a toilet. I find it very unpleasant.
>
>In other words, using linux and windows are such entirely
>different experiences that I can't even see why one would even be
>tempted to ask this question. I would ask: If you've invested
>the time and effort to learn linux / unix then why in hell would
>you use windows?
>
>
>--
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Something wrong with linux :-(
Date: 25 Jun 2000 15:42:25 -0500
On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:23:29 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>If you look at my previous posts, you'll know I'm definitely a
>linvocate, so I'm not trolling here.
>
>
>Recently, my brother needed a computer (for university). No problem, I
>set him up with Linux and he coulnn't be happier. Within days (ish) he
>was programming happily away and using latex. He's no computer nut, but
>he's competent and not `scared' of computers as meny people seem to be.
>He had no problem using any of the command line tools, aan all in all
>Linux was about the best choice.
>
>Now it comes to my sister. She's not stupid, but she's not the kind of
>person who likes playing with computers at all. She esentially needs a
>souped up typewriter. I don't exactly know why, but I reccomended a mac.
>I certainly wouldn'r reccomend windows, but something stopped me
>reccomending Linux.
>
>I don't know why. Just thought I'd share that...
>
Because you no that its' a mith that Lie-nux is easie to use.
This just serv's as prove that Lie-nux isn't reddy for priam time.
>
>-Ed
>
>
>--
>The day of judgement cometh. Join us O sinful one...
>http://fuji.stcatz.ox.ac.uk/cult/index.html
>
>remove foo from the end and reverse my email address to make any use of
>it.
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.admin.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lost Cause Theater!!!
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:45:13 GMT
Ronald Steedman wrote:
>
> According to the 1998 world almanac less than 1/3 of the world proclaim
> to be followers of Christianity. :)
>
> ...on the other hands about 4/5 of the listeners here ARE Christian...
>
> -- Ron Steedman
Don't forget the Islamic world. It's much bigger than the Christian
one. And they'll quite literally have their heads if anyone put up
texts like this one. Remember Salman Rushdie?
--
¨I live!¨
¨I hunger!¨
¨Run, coward!¨
-- The Sinistar
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich)
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 25 Jun 2000 19:43:31 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>This once again is circular argument about network effects -- network
>effects are there bc you claim that network effects are there. Economists
>working on network effects _deny_ there were network effects here.
WHICH economists? Ones who tell that illegal immigrant what he
wants to hear?
There is an abundance of evidence for network-effect positive
feedback outside of M$. Some protocol or API or document format or
whatever succeeds in squeezing out all similar ones. Examples:
* TCP/IP has become not only the networking-protocol standard of the
Internet, but also of many LAN's. Consider how Apple, that great
Not-Invented-Here company, has been leaving AppleTalk behind in favor of
TCP/IP.
* Real Operating Systems(tm) nowadays feature at least some level of Unix
compatibility -- even WindozeNT. The various bearers of the UNIX(TM)
brand, Linux, the *BSD's, the BeOS, MacOS X, etc. all have an abundance of
Unixness.
* OpenGL has squeezed out every low-level 3D-graphics API except
Direct3D, which has a big-bux patron. The 3D-card-specific ones are now
history, with the exception of Glide, which 3dfx is now allowing to
become history. And Apple has been leaving RAVE behind, despite its being
simple and elegant.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
[EMAIL PROTECTED] And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.admin.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lost Cause Theater!!!
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:46:52 GMT
Darren Winsper wrote:
>
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:30:51 GMT, Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't crosspost this message too much, if i were you. You just
> > managed to insult about 2/3 of the world population with 3 lines of
> > text. (Doesn't include me, but it's worrying nonetheless)
>
> They didn't seem to be particually bothered at high school when they
> forced me to pray to a God I didn't believe in during assemblies.
Phew, thank God :) i didn't have to go through that ordeal! I was at a
public non-christian school.
--
¨I live!¨
¨I hunger!¨
¨Run, coward!¨
-- The Sinistar
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The Linux Challenge
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:43:27 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > But was NT 64 bit on alpha?
>
> No, but Windows 2000 Datacenter will be.
Could you please document this claim???? From the press I've seen, ANY
w2k development for the Alpha has stopped!
http://www.wininformant.com/display.asp?ID=2793
>
> --
> The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
> Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich)
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 25 Jun 2000 19:50:13 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Darren Winsper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:14:42 GMT, MK
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Do you know what market share does YOUR grocery have?
>No, but I know it is not more than 25% of the UK market.
>> Do you care?
>Actually, yes. You see, in my local area, there is *one* supermarket.
>In order to go to another, I have to drive to a different town.
>Because of this, my local supermarket can get away with being crap and
>overpriced, kind of like Microsoft.
There are several possibilities:
* Starting some competition may be expensive, and it may not recoup its
investment if that price-gouger changes its tune.
* That price-gouger's management may have pulled strings at some local
zoning board.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
[EMAIL PROTECTED] And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.admin.networking,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Lost Cause Theater!!!
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:51:21 GMT
Don't quote the entire way-too-long-post and add one lame-remark line,
PLEASE!
--
¨I live!¨
¨I hunger!¨
¨Run, coward!¨
-- The Sinistar
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Comparing Windows NT and UNIX System Management
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:53:26 GMT
Tim Palmer wrote:
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/bin/nts/ntsysman.exe
What's the point of this? It's a dead link.
--
¨I live!¨
¨I hunger!¨
¨Run, coward!¨
-- The Sinistar
------------------------------
From: Cihl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Something wrong with linux :-(
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:55:13 GMT
Tim Palmer wrote:
Absolutely nothing!
Did you have something to say or not?
--
¨I live!¨
¨I hunger!¨
¨Run, coward!¨
-- The Sinistar
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Microsoft and General Stupidity
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:44:13 GMT
> My standpoint is that Microsoft is
> responsible for general user stupidity (per se) and ignorance, as well
> as a lack of creativity in the workplace. This is undoubtedly due to
> their dominant market share and ability to lull users into a sense of
> "what i don't see can't hurt me".
General stupidity do not exist. Each person self stupidity is only
because
of each own. Do not make strange theories. Stupids did exist before
Microsoft
and of course they'll exist after it.
> anti-Microsoft point.
Why anti-whatever ? Things are not black or white, there are a lot of
companies and persons outthere doing good and bad things at whatever.
------------------------------
From: Michael Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Yes, commercial OS are supported
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:00:59 GMT
"Sam E. Trenholme" wrote:
> Just because Microsoft has crappy phone support does not mean that
> competent support does not exist. To wit: Sun microsystems.
Agreed. Having dealth with Sun support many times myself I too say they
are damn good. Of course, we have a huge contract with them that costs
a lot...
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc.
"In the closed-source world, Version 1.0 means "Don't touch this if
you're prudent."; in the open-source world it reads more like "The
developers are willing to bet their reputations on this." - Eric Raymond
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich)
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 25 Jun 2000 20:03:43 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 25 Jun 2000 01:16:41 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich) wrote:
>
>>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> But if I was in his place, I'd ask how much money I was making
>>off of M$ as a result of my effusive praise of it.
>I could very well ask how much money you get from Sun or Novell -- but
>I really don't think they would want to pay the retard you are.
Not a penny. But though I've used Sun stuff, I've never used
Novell stuff. And I prefer to have critical sense, rather than to emit
such effusive praise that one might wonder who has been paying me.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
[EMAIL PROTECTED] And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
