Linux-Advocacy Digest #339, Volume #27 Mon, 26 Jun 00 00:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft Ruling
Too Harsh (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Stability of the Culture of Helpfulness ("Buggerboo")
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) ("TimL")
Re: Something wrong with linux :-( ("TimL")
Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: (The Tibetan
Traveller)
Re: Where is Linux going? ("TimL")
slashdot (Jeff Szarka)
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) (Jeff Szarka)
Re: Why X is better than Terminal Server (Craig Kelley)
Re: Linux MUST be in TROUBLE (david parsons)
Re: stability of culture of helpfulness ("Andrew N. McGuire ")
Re: Stupid idiots that think KDE is a Window Manager ("TimL")
Re: Dealing with filesystem volumes (Bryant Brandon)
Re: slashdot (mlw)
Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1) ("TimL")
Re: I've got reiserfs. Drestin, now bash Linux. ("KLH")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft
Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 26 Jun 2000 02:33:36 GMT
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:23:14 GMT, MK wrote:
>On 25 Jun 2000 03:03:01 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
>
>>*Again* , I disagree with your use of the word "discount". It is a punitive
>>pricing scheme for those who do not do Microsoft's bidding. There are no
>>"discounts".
>
>Again I object to call it anything but discount.
At the very least, it smells more like a punitive price penalty than a
discount.
> It's not fraud, it's not
>blackmail, it's not coercion. It's saying "become exlcusive
We'll just have to agree to disagree here. I've said it's coercion several
times and I've explained why. I don't believe going out of business is a
reasonable option for most OEMs
>>>That's like saying that McDonald's blackmails me bc it refuses to give
>>>me hamburger if I don't give them the money.
>
>>This is a straw man.
>
>This is analogy.
Which is a clever way of constructing straw man arguments. I've already
explained this in the thread. Those who argue by analogy are either
lacking in intellectual rigor, or are just plain dishonest. Analogies
always rely on a completely unsupported claim that "statements about foo
are equivalent to statements about bar".
>Your "reasoning" requires assumption that if business (or somebody
>else) needs it, this person has duty to grant this thing. But there
>is no such duty, regardless whether it comes to hamburgers or
>Windows.
But a threat to remove something one needs for survival is certainly a threat,
right ? If I say "do as I say, or I'll revoke your oxygen supply", I'd call
that coercion.
Basically, the balance of power is stacked so severely in favour of the
person who controls the others oxygen supply that they can make arbitrary
demands.
I object to a system where powerful bullies can use their power to impose
more or less arbitrary demands on those less fortunate. It seems clear
that you have no problem with this, hence your defence of the "liberty" of the
bullies, "liberty" in this case meaning "freedom to be a bully".
>Also, the question involved distinction between license being positive
>right and coercion being trampling on negative rights. What about that.
I think that once someone has monopoly power, there should be rules as to
how they can use it. I don't want to live under the thumb of corporate
bullies. I think it's dangerous to have a monopoly and yet act as though
the right to purchase the monopoly's product is not a "negative right".
For example, if a company had a monopoly on water, I would view the right
to buy water from them as a negative right because I believe I have a right
to buy water, and I have nowhere to go but this company.
>I'm not. I just do not make arbitrary switch that imbalance in
>bargaining power means coercion.
Well if the more powerful party starts making threats, it starts to
smell like coercion to me.
>True -- but employer has no option to hire another worker in that place. He
>can't fire all the workers. Typical supply and demand, it's not as bad
>as you make it appear.
You've already pointed out that they could just hire some illegals who
would accept much less favourable conditions !!!
>It is a difference, but not very important one -- it is still a condition
>that vendors have to "bend over" to get BeOS. The nature
No they don't. This is not a restriction on what the vendors can and can not
sell and as such, it is not a restraint of trade. And I would certainly
have no problem with MS doing exactly the same thing ! ( though if they did
it, it would have no effect since nearly all OEMs already offer Windows )
If MS did the same for say NT, I wouldn't complain. To me, there's a big
difference.
>of that requirement is the same as in case of MS. MS is just
>asking for something different.
MS are trying to prevent the OEM from selling competing products, Be are
not.
>>[ Baseless personal attack on anti trust lawyers snipped ]
>
>Oh, I see somebody has romantic need to have romantic hero. Maybe
>Klein in Superman's costume will come to rescue you. Maybe
>he'll even marry you -- isn't that great?
More of the same, huh ? Are you out to prove my point ?
>and anything else serves a single purpose -- monopolization. Labor
>unions use labor laws to keep the unemployed and illegal workers
>from competing,
Cut the crap. Illegal workers should not be allowed to compete. If illegal
workers are competing with US citizens, something is severely wrong. Oh,
I'm sure the corporate bullies would love to see the American work force
on salaries that are "good enough" for immigrants from third world
countries.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: "Buggerboo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Stability of the Culture of Helpfulness
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:10:24 +0900
------------------------------
From: "TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:46:54 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) wrote in
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Pete
Yes, the upgrades are supposed to be better than Windows, the supported
hardware is supposed to be better than windows, the overall fit and finish is
supposed to be better than windows.... blah blah blah.
Did someone promise you that every aspect of Linux would be better than
Windows? Why do you keep complaining to this list about you're Mandrake
problems? Go complain to Mandrake.
Did you pay for your copy of Mandrake? You sound like you paid dearly.
You sound resentful like I do when I pay out my arse for some piece of
software that doesn't work like I want it to.
It sure would be nice though that if somethnig like this happens you could
pick up the phone and say "#$@%#3%@%@!@!!!" and someone would
say "OK, do this that and the other and you'll be OK."
I mean if you pay for a product you ought to be able to do the above.
TOLL FREE.
/TimL
------------------------------
From: "TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Something wrong with linux :-(
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:49:45 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:23:29 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Because you no that its' a mith that Lie-nux is easie to use.
>
> This just serv's as prove that Lie-nux isn't reddy for priam time.
>
And your intentional misspelling just serves as proof that your
just playing games here.
/TimL
------------------------------
From: The Tibetan Traveller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was:
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:14:02 -0400
MK wrote:
> If MS did not burn Linux vendors and blackmail BeOS makers, it's
> not coercion.
I am curious why you exclude blackmail? It is non-violent. Nobody
threatens violence. It is a negotiated deal. If you pay me a crertain
amount of money, I will sell these pictures to you instead of the press.
--
And I feel like picking a fight, with everyone who thinks they are
right.
All the preacher men, the politicians, all the critics, ant the things
they write. -Rainmakers-
------------------------------
From: "TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Where is Linux going?
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:55:16 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sam
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:08:34 GMT, Goofy root <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Other posters have made good points here, but Corel is the least likely
> Linux to succeed.
> Sam
Hmm, I don't know. Corel seems bent on making linux as Window-ish as
possible. With this strategy, if they gain enough momentum and enough things
happen to close the gap between Windows and Linux they could emerge a
big name in not just the Linux market but in the OS market as well.
/TimL
------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: slashdot
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:54:18 -0400
Is slashdot down YET again? As of 10:52PM eastern it seems to be.
If Microsoft.com or hotmail.com was down you guys would say it proves
NT sucks... Well? Why can't slashdot seem to stay up more than few
days at a time?
------------------------------
From: Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:01:51 -0400
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:46:54 GMT, "TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Did someone promise you that every aspect of Linux would be better than
>Windows?
>From the sounds of Linux advocates... yes.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Why X is better than Terminal Server
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 25 Jun 2000 21:13:27 -0600
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) writes:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael Marion) wrote in
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >> How does UNIX cope when a badly written application starts to fork and
> >> its children start to fork too. I saw what happened when I did exactly
> >> that on a UNIX course. The system got swamped by hundreds of children
> >> all trying to fork. They had to reboot to recover the system.
> >
> >If limits are set properly (which they are in Solaris at least.. either
> >that or one of our developers put it in our default image long ago) the
> >user or in the worst case, root can get in and kill the offending
> >process.
>
> I tried the following on Linux:
>
> while (1) fork();
>
> Then I ran it. After a few seconds, I was unable to login, unable to do
> anything very much. Whilst the system responded to ALT-Fx I couldn't get in
> to kill the runaway processes.
Use ulimit to stop this DOS attack.
[snip]
> Now, Windows NT has a feature that means that CTRL-ALT-DELETE runs at
> priority 15. In theory that means I could log out and all the runaway
> processes should die. In theory! Since nothing could get in on the Linux
> system, and I certainly couldn't raise the priority of anything, the system
> was lost.
LOL
Try the same test under NT (I haven't tried it under Win2k) -- it'll
lock up tight.
[snip]
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (david parsons)
Subject: Re: Linux MUST be in TROUBLE
Date: 25 Jun 2000 19:47:01 -0700
>>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>[drooling nonsense]
>On 24 Jun 2000 22:31:13 -0700, david parsons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>*plonk*
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[look! He changed his from: line so that everyone can read his
contentless drooling!]
How cute. You're so insistant on having the last word that you'll
go out and change your email address just to avoid the twitfilter.
I may not have spelled out some of my helpful comments last time
around:
You Are A Stupid Asshole. Shut The Fuck Up.
____
david parsons \bi/ Oh, and *plonk* with your stupid email address of the
\/ hour.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
From: "Andrew N. McGuire " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: stability of culture of helpfulness
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:34:43 -0500
On 25 Jun 2000, Tim Palmer wrote:
+ On 19 Jun 2000 15:42:22 EDT, Dances With Crows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
+wrote:
+ >On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:02:32 GMT, Oliver Baker
+ ><<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> shouted forth into the ether:
[ snip ]
+ ...and after they get used to using ^P, ^N, ^B, and ^F insted of the arrow
+ keys, and after they get used
+ to having PgUp and PgDown only work sometiems, and after they get used
+ to using DEL insted of BACKSPACE and
+ after they get used to waiting for Netscape and after they get used to
+ tiping "mount" befoar loding a CD....
So don't use those keys, it is relatively simple to remap your keyboard
in whatever shell you use. Heck, you could use an editor that does not
even use those keys. There are more editors than I would care to count
available for Linux.
+ >support costs would
+
+ ...go thru the roof. Youd shure make the UNIX gooru's happy, but the normle users
+will hate halving to rede MAN pages all the time and use VI to eddit text
+ files.
Do you not know how to set your word wrap? Also, spell check is a
wonderful thing, or perhaps you are some warez dude?
To your point, it is *sad* if people are too lazy to read the
documentation pertaining to whatever software they are using.
And as for vi, don't use it if you don't like it. I would also
like to point out that an experienced vi user, can often edit
circles around users of notepad and the like.
+ >drop. I think companies could have fewer people, but they
+ >might need more competent people. (2 Unix BOFH-types at $90,000 each is
+ >less expensive than 6 tech-support Bobs at $30,000 each, factoring in
+ >health insurance/benefits/etc.) ICBW on all that, of course.
+
+ But you'd nead 20 teck-support Bob's to handel all the users hoo are going to be
+calling to ask how to do things that wer eesy for them on Windos.
Such as?
+ >
+ >>2) Is this culture of on-line helpfulness impervious to a)increasing
+ >>numbers of Linux users, b)increasing numbers of queries from Linux users
+ >>at companies who--it might be perceived--could afford to hire people to
+ >>generate in-house the answers they are instead getting through the
+ >>kindness of strangers.
+ >
+ >Good question. <soapbox>I believe that I am *required* to help people
+ >with Linux support, as my code's full of nasty quick hacks and I'm too
+
+ Doant' beet yourself up. Everyother Open Sore's programmer's coad is full
+ of nasty hack's and bugs to
+ Lie-nux is all maid up of nasty hack's thats' why it sucks so mutch.
Do you care to support your claims with any valid examples? I bet not.
You are a troll, obviously.
+ >poor to give loads of cash to the FSF, yet I need to give back to the
+ >community in some way. As such, if I can help somebody, I will, whether
+ >they're Joe Home User or Jane Corporate User. Linux has been built on a
+ >culture of altruism and knowledge-sharing; we should keep it up as much as
+ >possible and encourage those who've learned something to share it.
+ ></soapbox>
+ >
+ >That said, I'd be more motivated, less sarcastic/bitchy, and able to help
+ >more people if somebody were paying me by the hour to solve Linux
+ >problems.
+ >
+
+ Maybe youd be abal to rite better coad to.
You are a real piece of work. Learn to spell, get an idea of what
you are talking about, then maybe post if you have something useful
to contribute, troll.
anm
--
/*-------------------------------------------------------.
| Andrew N. McGuire |
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
`-------------------------------------------------------*/
------------------------------
From: "TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Stupid idiots that think KDE is a Window Manager
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:37:07 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You lose asshole.
>
> The majority of the population is not interested in writing programs.
> They USE programs....
>
> You show how much of an idiot you are with every post.
>
>
> Again:
>
>
>
> /dev OPEN IT WITH KFM AND SEE HOW LONG IT TAKES...
>
>
> Try a 20k directory under Windows 2k and it is INSTANTANEOUS!!!!! YOU
> CAN SCROLL FROM SECOND ONE......
>
> What is so hard about this for you to comprehend?
Well this thread may be dead, but I just opened my dev directory under gnome
and it came up instantaneously. This proves... nothing.
------------------------------
From: Bryant Brandon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Dealing with filesystem volumes
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:40:10 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (void) wrote:
@On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:04:19 GMT, Joe Ragosta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
@wrote:
@>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
@>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (void) wrote:
@>
@>> How is a Mac filesystem structured? What exactly is this persistent
@>> ID that identifies a file independently of its name? How is it
@>> guaranteed to be unique? Is there a way for a user to see it?
@>
@>I suspect the user can see it with ResEdit, but the point is that
@>there's no need.
@>
@>Basically, when you create a file, it gets a unique identifier (out of
@>billions or trillions of possibilities). The odds of duplicating that
@>are incredibly remote. The identifier remains with the file no matter
@>what you do to the name or the name of any other folders in the
@>hierarchy.
@
@This answer is a handwave, as far as I'm concerned. Point by point --
@first, there's never any need to see system internal data, until (not
@unless) something breaks and one has to fix it. Then there's no
@substitute for the ability to peer inside. Second, you call the
@identifier "unique", but you don't tell me how it's guaranteed to be
@unique, and since that's a real issue, I wouldn't trust the mechanism
@until I had a real answer.
@
@I don't mean to be hostile, this is just my POV.
The following is based entirely on memory. If anything's incorrect,
sorry.
Every file on the harddrive has a unique number the filesystem uses
to organize its directory structure. When a file is created, it is
given a unique number that will not be shared as long as the file exists.
An alias contains a pathname, this number, and some other stuff I
can't exactly remember. When resolving an alias, the system first uses
the pathname. If it finds a match, then, regardless of the file ID of
the file in that location, it will open, and the alias will be updated
with teh new file ID. (if its on a writable volume) If that fails, then
the file ID is referenced and then the pathname in the alias is updated
to point to the new location.
So, if the pathname is valid, it is used, if it is not valid, the
file ID is used. If that fails, other stuff happens, but I forget.
--
B.B. --I am not a goat! http://web2.airmail.net/dbrandon
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: slashdot
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:46:07 -0400
Jeff Szarka wrote:
>
> Is slashdot down YET again? As of 10:52PM eastern it seems to be.
>
> If Microsoft.com or hotmail.com was down you guys would say it proves
> NT sucks... Well? Why can't slashdot seem to stay up more than few
> days at a time?
Well, I would say that the makers of an OS should be different than
users. I.E. The uptime of RedHat or SUSE is more equivalent. Without
knowing what happened to slashdot, it is hard to say. It is clear that
they would not have the budget or the manpower that Microsoft has.
However, late on a sunday evening, I can envision standard maintenance.
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 9x, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit http://www.mohawksoft.com
Nepotism proves the foolishness of at least two people.
------------------------------
From: "TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Upgrades (Mandrake 7.0 to 7.1)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:08:03 GMT
In article
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jeff
Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:46:54 GMT, "TimL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Did someone promise you that every aspect of Linux would be better than
>>Windows?
>
> From the sounds of Linux advocates... yes.
That's a bit of a blanket statement. I think the phrase your looking for is
Linux fanatics. I can certainly understand some people being fanatic about
linux, but I think there's a distinct difference between fanatacism and
advocacy.
But from the sounds of your response the real answer is no. No one
promised anybody "that every aspect of Linux would be better than
Windows".
/TimL
------------------------------
From: "KLH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I've got reiserfs. Drestin, now bash Linux.
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:05:49 -0700
Ferdinand V. Mendoza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Bwaaa-haa-haa-haaaaa...
> In the Unix world YES!. To produce a quality journaling
> filesystem with limited resources and out of voluntary efforts
> for approxiamately three years is just marvelous.
> You just can't equate it with those M$! quickie software you
> can release in a weekend.
> BTW, how many years it took M$ to develop and ship their own
> journaling filesystem?
>
> Ferdinand
>
The only problem with your theory is that it doesn't make any sense.
Reiserfs was developed by a company. Perhaps some voluntary development but
I wouldn't wager that there was much. And saying that it was developed under
limited resources is, well, duh. So was Windows 2000.
And could you please quit putting a dollar sign in the abbreviation of
Microsoft! It just makes us seem like a bucket full of zealots (which sadly
may turn out to be the case).
Best Regards,
Kevin Holmes
> Christopher Browne wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > "so short period of time"????
> >
> > When do you think ReiserFS development started? Last week? My
> > Linux/FileSystems folder has messages on early releases of ReiserFS
> > dating back to _1997_.
> >
> > It is well and good to suggest that ReiserFS is a good thing; it has
> > not developed into such over a weekend.
> > --
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/>
> > Rules of the Evil Overlord #67. "No matter how many shorts we have in
> > the system, my guards will be instructed to treat every surveillance
> > camera malfunction as a full-scale emergency."
> > <http://www.eviloverlord.com/>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
