Linux-Advocacy Digest #367, Volume #27 Tue, 27 Jun 00 15:13:07 EDT
Contents:
Re: OS's ... (Nathaniel Jay Lee)
Makefiles vs. VC++ 6 Projects, Error Levels (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or fantasy?
Re: Linux faster than Windows? (The Ghost In The Machine)
Mac OS X gonna have a CLI! (Steve Jones)
Re: Comparing Windows NT and UNIX System Management
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Hyman Rosen)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Hyman Rosen)
Re: Mac OS X gonna have a CLI! (Rick)
Re: High School is out...here come the trolls...who can't accept the future.
("Leonardo")
I didn't know IIS ran on FreeBSD? (Pete Goodwin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OS's ...
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:10:31 -0500
Pedro Iglesias wrote:
>
> > I think you mean to say that Corel has made a really good Linux
> > distribution.
>
> In fact no. I have tested and left it on the dust. It is awful.
>
> > Trying to
> > make a better Windows than Windows is not the way to create a good Linux
> > distribution.
>
> Agree 100%.
>
> > However, I will agree that if MS ever decides to get into
> > the Linux game they will create a distribution exactly like Corel's.
> > Pretty to the masses, useless to real Linux gurus, and basically a
> > functionless, proprietary mess.
>
> Hehehehe, sadly I have to agree, but not because of the programmers team,
> just
> managers issue.
This is typically why products fail. You can have the best programmers
in the world working on a project, but if management dictates that you
do something completely bone-headed, then you either do the bone-headed
thing, or you lose your job. Marketing and management have way to much
to do with the creative end of software development nowadays. It would
be nice if management came to a solid team of software
engineers/developers and said, "We want a product that does X." and then
let the engineers and developers takle the project. Instead they come
to them and say, "Give me something that looks like this," (point to
Windows based whatever), "but actually does this," something completely
unrelated, "and have it ready by yesterday." I realize not all of this
could be cleared up, but some of it could be. And programs would become
more stable and better implemented if the actual coders were given some
power over what thier code was supposed to do.
That's just my opinion. But for the most part, this is the way the
business world works. Management tries to micromanage every little
project, they only half understand about one-quarter of the actual
project, and then steer it in a completely useless direction. Corel's
version of Linux seems to me to be a prime example of this. It is
mega-corporate company trying to understand why they can't just create a
proprietary version of Linux, then adding what they can to try and make
it thiers. Many so called Linux companies are suffering this right at
the moment because too many get into Linux without fully understanding
it. It isn't about how to make the most proprietary locked-in features,
it's about submitting good code and getting solid feedback on it. You
become well known by producing good product, not by locking people
down. It is completely different from the old time software
development. Things are just different on this side of the proverbial
fence. Those trying to adapt open source to the old way of thinking
will fail, those trying to adapt themselves to the open source way at
least have a chance at succeeding. Time will tell who truly wins
overall though.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nathaniel Jay Lee
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Makefiles vs. VC++ 6 Projects, Error Levels
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:17:24 GMT
Found another one.
In a sufficiently large project (read: anything bigger than about a
half dozen files :-) ), this behavior becomes annoying quickly.
One easy way to reproduce this. Take "New Project", select
"MFC AppWizard(exe)", pick any settings you like, hit OK,
build it (whoopee, an untitled document! :-)), then change the
C++/General/Warning level from Level 3 to Level 4, hit [OK],
hit Build again.
"The project setings have changed since the last build. Would you like
to rebuild the affected files?"
What?? All I did was change a compiler warning level!
But OK, I'll play along.
[Yes]
Watch it build the affected files, namely all of them!
It gets worse.
If one says [No], one gets just a relink, which is fine, but
the next time a build is requested, all the files will build
anyway.
Brain-damaged doesn't begin to describe this behavior!
Now, to be fair, it's apparent that this sort of thing might
bite people badly in classical Makefiles, as a change in the
Makefile doesn't automatically do a rebuild. However, somebody
using a Makefile probably has a little more of a clue as to
whether he needs to rebuild or not; in any event, 'make clean'
should take care of most problems. (Not all, mind you; the
WinE project in particular occasionaly leaves detrius lying
about, even with 'make clean', and this appears to be because
files and directories become "no longer relevant", but their
derivatives (.o, .spec.c, etc.) aren't deleted.)
Also, other settings, such as include files, will necessitate
a rebuild anyway.
But for an error level change? Please.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or
fantasy?
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:13:20 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On 27 Jun 2000 09:42:42 -0500, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
>
> That's a fun thought: what if your printer is still perfectly
> functional but your hardware vendor doesn't want to go to the
> trouble to actively support it anymore?
That is not just a "could it happen" it and other situations like that are
already happening today and have been for a few years already.
Just take a look at the alt.comp.hardware.* newsgroups for a while and see
how many of situations like this are happening.
There are hardware manufacturers that have stopped supporting some older or
unprofitable models of their winprinters, leaving the owners stuck with
using them on the Windows version that was current while the unit was
supported.
There are other cases of printers sold as being able to run on Windows 95 or
Windows 95/98 that can not run on Windows 95 retail because the driver was
written so that it depends some "feature" of Windows 95 that was introduced
and offered in only Windows 95 OEM.
If a person could know these details while planning a purchase, then we
could say that they got what they paid for. But it is often difficult to
determine if a printer is a winprinter or not. Unless the specs or the ads
for the unit specifically state that it is a winprinter (and very few still
promote this as a selling feature), one has to play a guessing game reading
between the lines to determine its status. You can't get a straight answer
from most of the computer store salesmen and any communications with the
hardware vendor or manufacturer most often provides you with inconclusive
information.
As an example: There was a person requesting information about a particular
speciality printer that he liked. The problem was that he was worried that
it might have been a winprinter, the particular manufacturer is know to make
both winprinters and normal printers in the same line of of speciality
printer. Each of the models of the line were priced slightly different but
reguardless of being winprinters and normal printers they were priced in the
same ballpark, so much of the claim that winprinters are cheaper for the
consumer (sometimes yes and somtimes no). He stated that his computing
environment could not support a winprinter.
I tried to assist him, and check all the standard information sources that I
could for that model printer and my findings were inconclusive. I contacted
the manufacturer's techsupport and sales departments via email. That was of
no help either, and neither was the salesmen in a computer store I visisted
and found that they carried that particular model.
There are the computer package deals where someone purchases a computer and
it comes with a printer. What about getting saddled with a winprinter and a
windmodem when someone purchases a computer package deal and gives it to you
as a gift? If you choose to use that computer with a something other than
Windows, then unless you are willing to not use those devices or you have to
purchase replacements for them and possibly hurt the feelings of those that
provided you the gift.
The claim that winhardware is more economical than the non-winhardware
counter part can always be countered by: Paying less today and then paying
more again and again and again, can amount to more than paying a little more
today and not have to pay more in the future. Paying 100 dollars for
something that can work for you for 20-years is better than paying 50
dollars for something else that can only provide you service for 5 years or
than paying 25 dollars for something that will last 10 years if you then
have to pay 10 dollars every year of its life. Often the cheapest is not
the most economical, sometimes the cheapest is just rubish and cost you much
more in the long run.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Linux faster than Windows?
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:26:29 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Mike Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote on 27 Jun 2000 17:29:08 +0200 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine) writes:
>
>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Christian Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote on Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:59:04 +0100
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) writes:
>> >> bobh{at}haucks{dot}org (Bob Hauck) wrote in
>> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> >>
>> >>>The fact that one compiler is very portable and can generate code for a
>> >>>huge number of platforms, and the other isn't and can't, _is_ relevant
>> >>>to a fair comparison. Especially since your test is cpu-bound and
>> >>>makes no system calls except to get the time. It is really testing the
>> >>>compiler rather then the OS.
>> >>
>> >> I'm testing on Intel hardware. How is multiple platform support
>> >> relevant to that?
>> >>
>> >> Yes, you're right, I'm testing the compiler. The same compiler
>> >> that builds the OS, right?
>> >>
>> >Try this test.
>> >Find a bubble sort algorithm, and compile it Windows using VCC.
>> >Find a qsort algorithm, use qsort in libc, and compile it using
>> >GCC on *nix.
>>
>> Pedant point: Quicksort has N^2 performance on already-sorted lists,
>> and might overflow the stack to boot.
>>
>
>You wont get the stack overflow if your quicksort implementation
>isn't recursive (although I assume libc qsort is).
I'd have to look through the source code; thankfully, on Linux at
least, I have that option. Lessee....
According to the source code comments, the algorithm is
a non-recursive modified quicksort/insertion sort pair.
This should -- I don't know for sure without actually
trying it, or digging through the source code in grotesque
detail -- remove most of my objections.
>
>> (This is assuming qsort() actually uses quicksort, as opposed to
>> some other sorting algorithm, like hashsort or AVL treesort.)
>>
>> Of course, a bubble sort *always* has N^2 performance.
>>
>
>Think about bubble sort on an already sorted list (best case).
It's still N^2 performance. The compares are always done.
[.sigsnip]
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
From: Steve Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Mac OS X gonna have a CLI!
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:38:32 -0500
Check this out, Mac gonna have a command line interface!
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2593935,00.html
The story says they're going to hide it deep so noone but a power user
can find it. Guess they finally figured out that you can't provide a
button for everything.
Ain't this gonna piss off the GUI heads.
--
If I'm leanibg to the left it's because one leg is loneger than the
other.
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Comparing Windows NT and UNIX System Management
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:32:34 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Mikey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Thus Sprake The Ghost In The Machine:
> > > >
> > > > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Tim Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > wrote on 25 Jun 2000 15:41:13 -0500 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/bin/nts/ntsysman.exe
> > > >
> > > > [2] What, precisely, is the point of serving a .exe file? Is this
> > > > executed from the server side, or the client?
> > >
> > > I wonder... Could it be an .exe virii or worm that runs on M$
Outhouse?
> >
> > Virii or worms that run on one of the biggest worms in todays computing
> > environment as a host?
>
> Just like in the biological world...
> most parasites play host to other parasites.
True.
I was just imaging a Shi'Hulud of Arrakis from Herbet's Dune series. I was
picturing Microsoft products as Shi'Hulud being hosts for sand trouts in the
form of computer virii and worms. I wonder if Shi'Tain the latter name for
the worms after the death of Emperor Leto II would be more appropriate than
Shi'Hulud?
------------------------------
From: Hyman Rosen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 27 Jun 2000 14:44:04 -0400
Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hyman> The requirement of rising above the noise and surviving
> Hyman> demonization is exactly what filters out the weak and loony
> Hyman> ideas and lets most people live out their lives in peace,
> Hyman> safe from the revolutionaries who would wreak havoc on
> Hyman> society.
>
> Which is an argument for the status quo. Without the
> revolutionaries "wreaking havoc" you would still be paying tax to the
> British Monarch, and I would probably have been executed for sedition
> a long long time ago.
But the American Revolutionaries *were* able to rise above the noise
and convince enough people that revolution was worthwhile. But it
cannot be the case that anyone who gets up to shout "revolution" must
succeed. Instead, they must be convincing enough to draw support away
from the status quo.
------------------------------
From: Hyman Rosen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 27 Jun 2000 14:55:28 -0400
Volker Hetzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> The point is that it's very easy to use this to shut up people with
> good ideas. I don't know about you but the average person can just
> about always be shouted down by a well prepared, well paid agressive
> speaker(s) who's employed by the opposing side. Plus PR of course.
> Free speech is *not* about letting money decide who wins a
> discussion. So, the current (oral) system doesn't filter out the
> weak ideas, but the rhetorically unsophisticated people.
Free speech is all about communicating ideas. If you cannot
communicate your idea clearly and convincingly, it's unlikely
to get a hearing. The mechanism of swaying undecided people
to support an idea involves presenting it an attractive light.
It is frequently the case that when supporters of an idea fail
to get it widely accepted, they seek to attribute blame to
something other than people actually considering their idea and
rejecting it.
------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Mac OS X gonna have a CLI!
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:02:25 -0400
Steve Jones wrote:
>
> Check this out, Mac gonna have a command line interface!
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2593935,00.html
>
> The story says they're going to hide it deep so noone but a power user
> can find it. Guess they finally figured out that you can't provide a
> button for everything.
>
No, it means they recognize that a command line can be useful.
> Ain't this gonna piss off the GUI heads.
>
No, but a comment like that probably will.
--
Rick
To reply by email remove the obvious from my address.
------------------------------
From: "Leonardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: High School is out...here come the trolls...who can't accept the future.
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:56:47 +0300
Look at
http://websnapshot.mycomputer.com/systemos.html
or
http://www.netcraft.com/
or any other site that analysis net traffic and you'll get 0.3% for Linux.
Is it so hard to believe?
--L
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8iuo54$nee$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Here are some more data from the same source:
>
>
> Percent of information technology managers using or planning to use Linux
> as a server based operating system.
>
> Current: %
> Currently Use 24%
> Plan to Use Within 12 Months 48%
> No Plans 24%
> Don't Know 4%
>
>
>
> Percent of information technology managers replacing or planning to
replace
> their operating system with Linux, by operating system.
>
> Current: %
> Windows NT 50%
> Windows 95 24%
> Unix Servers 22%
> Unix Desktops 18%
> Windows 98 16%
> Novell NetWare 14%
> Macintosh 6%
> Apache 2%
> Other 26%
>
>
>
> From the "I don't know if I show laugh or cry or just be shocked
department"
>
> I figured I would make a browser counter vote for Mosaic on Linux over at
> the Microsoft website, while there I found this: Microsoft Freedom to
> Innovate Network
>
> -----cut line ------
> About the Freedom to Innovate Network
>
> We formed the Freedom to Innovate Network (FIN) as a response to the
> overwhelming amount of correspondence we received from around the U.S. and
> overseas regarding the trial with the Department of Justice and other
public
> policy issues. The FIN is a non-partisan, grassroots network of citizens
and
> businesses who have a stake in the success of Microsoft and the high-tech
> industry. The FIN will help you stay up to date on critical developments
in
> public policy. Sign up for a free e-newsletter, tell us your thoughts,
take
> action and stay informed. It's how you can make a difference!
>
> How to contact FIN:
>
> Microsoft Freedom to Innovate Network
> 16625 Redmond Way
> Ste, M-447
> Redmond, WA
> 98052-9724
>
> email at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/freedomtoinnovate/default.htm
>
> -----cut line ------
>
>
> There was a whole tree of webpages for this non-partisian grass roots
> organization, who do they think they are fooling and who do they think
would
> be stupid enough to join? I know there is supposed to be one born every
> minute--But really!
>
> This reminds me of a few years ago there was a movement to raise the
tobaco
> tax so the industry fought it by forming a "grass roots" organizations
call
> "Citizens Againts Unfrair Taxation" to serve as their shill.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark S. Bilk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8irnuf$pvn$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:57:01 -0400, PowerUser
> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > >>LINUX IS HERE TO STAY, AND AT THE RATE THAT IT IS GROWING/DEVELOPING,
> > >>IT WILL BE THE MAJOR OS OF THE FUTURE.
> > >
> > >As long as .3 percent of total market share is what you are looking
> > >for, I would say you are right on track.
> >
> > In the business world, Linux market share is probably 30% --
> > one hundred times the .3% figure repeatedly posted by our
> > resident liar, Steve/Mike/Simon (for which he never gives
> > a reference).
> >
> > By going to this web page, and clicking on the free data
> > link, one can access various industry surveys taken as late
> > as one year ago -- 2Q99 (more recent ones cost a dollar a
> > minute to access):
> >
> > http://www.infotechtrends.com/freedemo.htm
> >
> > Thanks to WhyteWolf for posting this one, which you get by
> > checking the "web" box:
> >
> > 99Q2 - Percent of Web servers using each operating system.
> >
> > Percent of Web servers using each operating system.
> >
> > Windows NT 26%
> > Linux 21%
> > Solaris 16%
> > BSDI 11%
> > SGI (IRIX) 9%
> > Free BSD 8%
> >
> > JOURNAL/SOURCE/TITLE DATE PAGE
> > VARBUSINESS/ 12-Apr-99 58 Netcraft/
> > *GENERATION LINUX - NIPPING NT's HEELS
> >
> > So, Linux had almost caught up to Windows NT in web server
> > market share a year ago, and the most popular Unix systems
> > combined exceeded NT's share by 2.5 to 1 (.65/.26).
> >
> > But if you instead check the boxes for "software" and
> > "systems", you can get this report:
> >
> > 99Q2 - Percent of information technology managers using
> > or planning to use Linux as a general purpose desktop
> > or workstation operating system.
> >
> > Currently Use 10%
> > Use Within 12 Months 20%
> > No Plans 68%
> > Don't Know 1%
> >
> > JOURNAL/SOURCE/TITLE DATE PAGE
> > VARBUSINESS/ 12-Apr-99 54 InformationWeek/
> > *GENERATION LINUX - NEXT STOP: DESKTOP
> >
> > One year ago, when KDE and Gnome, along with hardware and
> > installation support, were much less developed than they
> > are now, Linux was already in use on the desktop/workstation
> > computers of 10% of all businesses. The figure may now
> > be 30%, if the managers planning to switch to Linux have
> > followed through.
> >
> > The next LinuxWorld Conference and Expo will be held
> > August 14-17 2000, in San Jose, Calif. The last one was
> > huge! See hundreds of companies and organizations with
> > GNU/Linux/OSS related products. Meet Linus and RMS.
> > Pet a real penguin! Register now for free admission to
> > the exhibits, Aug. 15-17 (save $25).
> >
> > http://www.linuxworldexpo.com/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Subject: I didn't know IIS ran on FreeBSD?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: 27 Jun 2000 13:40:10 GMT
>From Netcraft today:
www.microsoft.com is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on FreeBSD
--
============
Pete Goodwin
------------------------------
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