Linux-Advocacy Digest #379, Volume #27 Wed, 28 Jun 00 09:13:38 EDT
Contents:
Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or fantasy?
(John Wiltshire)
Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft Ruling
Too Harsh (Loren Petrich)
Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (Loren Petrich)
Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or fantasy?
(John Wiltshire)
Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or fantasy?
(John Wiltshire)
Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or fantasy?
(John Wiltshire)
Re: UNIX/Linux and DNA (No Name)
Oracle's Dirty Tricks Department ("Marcus Turner")
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Phillip Lord)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Phillip Lord)
Re: Oracle's Dirty Tricks Department ("public_nuisance")
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Phillip Lord)
Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome! (Phillip Lord)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or
fantasy?
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:23:57 GMT
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:17:30 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 13:14:41 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim
>> Richardson) wrote in comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:
>>
>> >Sure, use Siag, you can also embed a netscape navigator in your
>spreadsheet,
>> >or an xterm, or pretty much any program you want.
>>
>> Interesting. Is the embedded data (html or whatever) stored inside
>> the saved document, or is it just a program running in a subwindow?
>
>Of course the program runs in a subwindow, that's the only reasonable
>way to embed something.
Not at all. The best way to embed something is in place activation
(document centric rather than application centric).
>As for storing the data, it can either be
>imported and stored with the main document, or linked and stored
>separately.
I assume when you import it, it reactivates the original application
when you run. Does this only work where you have a plugin written for
the particular application, or is there a generic document/data
transfer protocol in use here? (Just trying to guage the technology
against COM/OLE).
John Wiltshire
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action (was: Microsoft
Ruling Too Harsh
Crossposted-To:
misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:22:13 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 25 Jun 2000 19:08:03 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich) wrote:
>> An ILLEGAL immigrant in pursuit of gold-paved streets. Sheesh.
>You know nothing about my life or what is it that I pursue, so fuck off.
Horse manure.
>> And one who never made very much money off of being a capitalism
>>groupie.
>Enough to understand how things tick in major aspects, and where I can expect
>real and where I can expect unreal.
But I don't see you bragging about the promotions you have gotten.
>"Good government" and real govt are like potential and reality.
So why not move to some supposed anarcho-capitalist utopia and
see how nice it is?
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
[EMAIL PROTECTED] And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Anti-Human Libertarians Oppose Microsoft Antitrust Action
Crossposted-To:
misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:39:51 GMT
In article <8j8p3m$qi7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Joseph T. Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Why was it OK for us (and/or our ancestors) to come here and work, yet
>it is not OK for them?
Why don't you defend squatting as the right to live wherever one wants?
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
[EMAIL PROTECTED] And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
------------------------------
From: John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or
fantasy?
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:37:05 GMT
On 27 Jun 2000 09:42:42 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
wrote in comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>>How about about the fact that they are hopelessly tied to the
>>>CPU and OS that has the driver to run them, and they have
>>>to be discarded to switch to anything else? I've had printers
>>>whose lives spanned several computer types and expect it
>>>to happen again. Are all those people you claim are happy
>>>with their winprinter willing to consider them disposable
>>>when they switch computers or OS versions?
>>
>>That's not a particularly valid question as they have no intentions to
>>do either. If they wanted to do this then they would have paid twice
>>as much and got a printer that could.
>
>So, if you can foretell the future, they are OK...
If I could foretell the future, I'd be doing something other than
buying hardware. As I can't I get the machine that best suits the
current needs. Tomorrow's needs are hard to pick. Given that a
serial modem now has a limited life (USB looks like it will replace
serial ports in standard machines), and parallel ports are definitely
on the way out.
Linux doesn't support USB well yet so I guess that means you guys are
stuck with dead end or high end hardware.
>>I just don't understand the idea that people are stupid for figuring
>>out their requirements (a cheap printer than works with Win9x and CPU
>>load is no object) and getting exactly that. I'd call someone who
>>overspent on a printer for the same requirement the one who got ripped
>>off.
>
>Win9x has a lifespan that should already be over. Maybe the
>printer will work with what they want to run tomorrow, maybe
>it won't.
You can say that for anything. What printer interface would YOU have
recommended a year ago? If it is parallel or serial then I guess you
would be stuck with hardware you can't even plug in to your machines
let alone get a driver for in a year or so's time.
As for Winprinters, if the price is right and the purpose is right
then you should get it. Buying a printer to last 10 years these days
means you are getting high end and not low end. Figure it out.
People replace things. Often it is cheaper that way and more
efficient. It depends on your setup, tax structure and other things.
You'll never agree - your rel^H^H^Hphilosophy won't let you.
John Wiltshire
------------------------------
From: John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or
fantasy?
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:37:45 GMT
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:21:49 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote in
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:
> That's a fun thought: what if your printer is still perfectly
> functional but your hardware vendor doesn't want to go to the
> trouble to actively support it anymore?
You mean like when you only have USB and no serial or parallel ports?
John Wiltshire
------------------------------
From: John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Claims of Windows supporting old applications are reflecting reality or
fantasy?
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:48:15 GMT
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:13:20 -0700, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:
>
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> On 27 Jun 2000 09:42:42 -0500, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> >John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>>
>> That's a fun thought: what if your printer is still perfectly
>> functional but your hardware vendor doesn't want to go to the
>> trouble to actively support it anymore?
>
>That is not just a "could it happen" it and other situations like that are
>already happening today and have been for a few years already.
>
>Just take a look at the alt.comp.hardware.* newsgroups for a while and see
>how many of situations like this are happening.
Sure. You can also look at the comp.xxx newsgroups and see the number
of things Windows supports that Linux doesn't. Getting into "My OS
supports more hardware than yours" is very dangerous.
>There are hardware manufacturers that have stopped supporting some older or
>unprofitable models of their winprinters, leaving the owners stuck with
>using them on the Windows version that was current while the unit was
>supported.
>
>There are other cases of printers sold as being able to run on Windows 95 or
>Windows 95/98 that can not run on Windows 95 retail because the driver was
>written so that it depends some "feature" of Windows 95 that was introduced
>and offered in only Windows 95 OEM.
>
>If a person could know these details while planning a purchase, then we
>could say that they got what they paid for.
Agreed.
>But it is often difficult to
>determine if a printer is a winprinter or not. Unless the specs or the ads
>for the unit specifically state that it is a winprinter (and very few still
>promote this as a selling feature), one has to play a guessing game reading
>between the lines to determine its status. You can't get a straight answer
>from most of the computer store salesmen and any communications with the
>hardware vendor or manufacturer most often provides you with inconclusive
>information.
>
>As an example: There was a person requesting information about a particular
>speciality printer that he liked. The problem was that he was worried that
>it might have been a winprinter, the particular manufacturer is know to make
>both winprinters and normal printers in the same line of of speciality
>printer. Each of the models of the line were priced slightly different but
>reguardless of being winprinters and normal printers they were priced in the
>same ballpark, so much of the claim that winprinters are cheaper for the
>consumer (sometimes yes and somtimes no). He stated that his computing
>environment could not support a winprinter.
>
>I tried to assist him, and check all the standard information sources that I
>could for that model printer and my findings were inconclusive. I contacted
>the manufacturer's techsupport and sales departments via email. That was of
>no help either, and neither was the salesmen in a computer store I visisted
>and found that they carried that particular model.
As long as the person states that his computing environment cannot
support a Winprinter when he buys it and makes sure it is written down
somewhere then he can take the printer straight back.
It's usually very easy to tell though - just look for DOS support. I
figured someone as bright as yourself should have been able to work
that one out. Guess not.
>There are the computer package deals where someone purchases a computer and
>it comes with a printer. What about getting saddled with a winprinter and a
>windmodem when someone purchases a computer package deal and gives it to you
>as a gift? If you choose to use that computer with a something other than
>Windows, then unless you are willing to not use those devices or you have to
>purchase replacements for them and possibly hurt the feelings of those that
>provided you the gift.
What sort of daft idea is that? The person getting you the gift
should have known better. What if they gave you a laptop that didn't
even support Linux? How about an iMac which didn't run your existing
software. If you are that worried about hurting your friend's
feelings then you should probably run the OS he gave you as well. I
mean wouldn't want to hurt his feelings given that he paid for it.
>The claim that winhardware is more economical than the non-winhardware
>counter part can always be countered by: Paying less today and then paying
>more again and again and again, can amount to more than paying a little more
>today and not have to pay more in the future. Paying 100 dollars for
>something that can work for you for 20-years is better than paying 50
>dollars for something else that can only provide you service for 5 years or
>than paying 25 dollars for something that will last 10 years if you then
>have to pay 10 dollars every year of its life. Often the cheapest is not
>the most economical, sometimes the cheapest is just rubish and cost you much
>more in the long run.
And the above argument is countered by: At $100, do you really expect
the printer to run for 20 years? What are the maintenance costs for
that, and do they add up to the same as the Winprinter? Cheaper
printers generally take cheaper ink cartridges/toner cartridges.
Sounds like you've invented stories to support your view. I'm not
even going to stoop to that, aside from stating the obvious:
Often the cheapest *is* the most economical. By definition.
Think about your exact quote in a different context:
What do you think of Linux and the Open Source Movement?
Often the cheapest is not the most economical, sometimes the cheapest
is just rubish and cost you much more in the long run.
Hmm. Want to rephrase?
John Wiltshire
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (No Name)
Subject: Re: UNIX/Linux and DNA
Date: 28 Jun 2000 10:49:19 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:59:48 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
>A little info on how Unix and Linux helped map human DNA...
>
>
>http://www.vnunet.com/News/1104919
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Real OS and HW for real work. Just normal.
------------------------------
From: "Marcus Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Oracle's Dirty Tricks Department
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:40:18 GMT
June 28, 2000
Oracle Admits To Microsoft Probe
Filed at 7:13 a.m. EDT
By The Associated Press
NEW YORK (AP) -- The Oracle Corp. has confirmed it hired a detective agency
to investigate allies of rival Microsoft Corp., and said the work showed
that Microsoft paid the trade and policy groups to ``influence'' public
opinion during its federal antitrust trial.
The work by Investigative Group International Inc. allegedly included a
$1,200 offer to janitors to get a peek at the trash of the Association for
Competitive Technology, a trade group.
While Oracle did not take specific responsibility for the probe of ACT, the
company said it was necessary to hire IGI to investigate the Independent
Institute of Oakland, Calif., and the National Taxpayers Union of Arlington,
Va., to expose Microsoft's actions.
The groups ``were misrepresenting themselves as independent advocacy groups,
when in fact their work was funded by Microsoft for the express purpose of
influencing public opinion in favor of Microsoft during its antitrust
trial,'' Oracle said Tuesday.
The Oracle statement and details of the incident involving the rival
software giants were reported Wednesday in The Wall Street Journal and The
New York Times. Oracle said it told the detective agency nothing illegal was
to be done during the investigation.
``This is a sad day,'' Mark Murray, a Microsoft spokesman, told The
Associated Press. ``(Oracle is) basically trying to justify these
inappropriate actions and it's unfortunate that Oracle won't admit that it's
wrong.''
Oracle said it retained the detective agency a year ago to investigate the
Oakland free-market policy institute after it placed full-page ads defending
Microsoft in national newspapers. The Times has reported that the ad was
paid for by Microsoft.
The taxpayers' union at one point issued a study blaming the antitrust
case -- which Microsoft lost and has appealed -- for a loss in value of
state pension funds. The Journal later reported that the group had received
funding from Microsoft.
The Journal also reported Wednesday that Oracle hired a Washington public
relations firm, Chlopak, Leonard, Schechter & Associates, to disseminate
potentially damaging information about Microsoft to the media. That work
included suggestions that a company headed by political consultant Ralph
Reed -- a top campaign strategist for George W. Bush -- was trying to
persuade the presidential candidate to support Microsoft.
The company, Century Strategies, later apologized for encouraging ``a small
number of individuals'' to lobby Bush. The company said Reed never asked
Bush to take a position on the court case.
Copyright 2000 The New York Times Company
------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 28 Jun 2000 13:54:18 +0100
>>>>> "Hyman" == Hyman Rosen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Hyman> Volker Hetzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> The point is that it's very easy to use this to shut up people
>> with good ideas. I don't know about you but the average person
>> can just about always be shouted down by a well prepared, well
>> paid agressive speaker(s) who's employed by the opposing
>> side. Plus PR of course. Free speech is *not* about letting
>> money decide who wins a discussion. So, the current (oral)
>> system doesn't filter out the weak ideas, but the rhetorically
>> unsophisticated people.
Hyman> Free speech is all about communicating ideas. If you cannot
Hyman> communicate your idea clearly and convincingly, it's unlikely
Hyman> to get a hearing. The mechanism of swaying undecided people
Hyman> to support an idea involves presenting it an attractive
Hyman> light.
The point is that it would be nice to have a society where
we can openly discuss ideas, which our political systems do not really
seem to do. It all seems to be about spin and PR, and who can pay for
the most air time.
Hyman> It is frequently the case that when supporters of an idea
Hyman> fail to get it widely accepted, they seek to attribute blame
Hyman> to something other than people actually considering their
Hyman> idea and rejecting it.
Indeed. This does not mean that power blocks backed up with
large amounts of capital do not get greater considerations of their
ideas than others.
Phil
------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 28 Jun 2000 13:57:09 +0100
>>>>> "Volker" == Volker Hetzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Volker> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>> It's helped along by organized labor, which is grasping at straws
>> trying to get protectionism back.
Volker> Protectionism is done by companies to protect their profits
Volker> from the competition.
And also governments. Supposedly we live in a free market. So
why is it that if large capital interests want to move their factories
to Eastern Europe because the labour is cheaper they are free to do
so. But if labour wants to move to western europe because they will
get paid more there's a hoard of immigration officers waiting for
them. Does not seem very free to me.
Phil
------------------------------
From: "public_nuisance" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Oracle's Dirty Tricks Department
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:58:10 GMT
Not too difficult to believe since their first contract ever was with the
CIA.
Marcus Turner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:Cul65.11$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> June 28, 2000
> Oracle Admits To Microsoft Probe
------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 28 Jun 2000 14:00:04 +0100
>>>>> "Jay" == Jay Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Jay> On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:04:16 +0000, Volker Hetzer
Jay> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Protectionism is done by companies to protect their profits from
>> the competition. The hard kind goes to the government for import
>> dues, the soft kind starts a "buy
>> american/british/german/whatever" campaign.
Jay> Nice try. How come Big Labor is universally on the side of
Jay> protectioninsm, while business isn't? (Yes, I know some
Jay> businesses are, but others aren't.)
You are wrong on both counts. Business is universally of the
side of protectionism that benefits them. For someone who is so
cognisant of the problems with the use of the word "free" as espoused
by the FSF, I am surprised that you have not realised that the "free"
market is a total sham.
Phil
------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman's Politics (was: Linux is awesome!
Date: 28 Jun 2000 14:06:30 +0100
>>>>> "Stefaan" == Stefaan A Eeckels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Counter example to "big labour". The german green card. Instead
>> of lobbying against the import of foreign labour they made sure
>> that they don't get paid less than their german counterparts. I
>> call this "social conscience", not "protectionism".
Stefaan> Nonetheless, when confronted with cheap imports, unions
Stefaan> react with demands for protectionist measures. You see,
Stefaan> foreigners working for less than a German are a threat to
Stefaan> their members, so they can proceed in two ways: - make the
Stefaan> foreigner non-competitive (someone who speaks poor German
Stefaan> and is paid the same as a native German speaker is at a
Stefaan> disadvantage), whilst holding the upper moral ground. -
Stefaan> refusing entry and looking like racists.
Stefaan> Which alternative would _you_ prefer, knowing that in both
Stefaan> cases the result is the same?
Neither. The other alternative is to help the workers
producing cheap imports campaign for better wages and conditions,
because it most case this is why the imports are much cheaper.
Stefaan> You have to understand that the reactions of companies and
Stefaan> unions is wholly self-serving. Mealy-mouthing about free
Stefaan> trade, or solidarity is just selfrighteous bluster designed
Stefaan> to hoodwink the public or allow people to feel good when
Stefaan> choosing sides.
Thats one way of putting I suppose. It is possible I think
to express an opinion on the "free" market, or trading relationships,
or society in general without necessarily being self-righteous, or
desiring to hoodwink people.
Phil
------------------------------
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