Linux-Advocacy Digest #805, Volume #27 Thu, 20 Jul 00 04:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why use Linux? ("Spud")
Re: MS advert says Win98 13 times less reliable than W2k ("Spud")
Re: Linux = Yet Another Unix (Ray Chason)
Re: Am I the only one that finds this just a little scary? ("David Brown")
Re: Linux = Yet Another Unix (Bob Marcan)
Re: Am I the only one that finds this just a little scary? ("Boris")
Re: Am I the only one that finds this just a little scary? ("David Brown")
Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish. (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451746 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish. (T. Max Devlin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Spud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why use Linux?
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:12:05 -0700
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> Pete Goodwin wrote:
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip) wrote in
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > >Well Pete has said in several posts he pays per minute charges to
> > >access the net. So it's clear his web server is sitting there
doing
> > >nothing.
> >
> > At work. In any case it was an experimental web server, and it's
not being
> > used. But, it's still running after over a month.
> >
>
> and GM, Ford, and Chrysler all sell cars that won't rust if you keep
> them in the garage.
>
> So, like, what's your point?
Let's check the context here...
>> Nope, what I am saying is that uptime bragging is meaningless and
worthless
>> unless taken in context.
>Not at all.
>Windows will crash at the login prompt if you let it sit for a month.
That last comment was made by one Aaron R. Kulkis, as I read it. The
comment suggests that Windows (note that it's not qualified by
version, so we must assume _every_ version of Windows, from 1.0 to
2000, has this issue) is in fact so unstable that it cannot even
manage to show a logon prompt for a month without crashing - let alone
do any work at all.
If Pete's comments are to be believed, he has a server which has, in
fact, not only been up for more than a month, but actually doing work
for that time. Low demand work, perhaps, but certainly more than just
sitting waiting for a logon.
Given that others have had similar experiences - myself with NT4 and
Win2K for example - it would seem that Windows, in some flavours at
least, can in fact be up for more than a month, as opposed to the
apparent blanket assertion above that Windows (by implication all
versions) cannot, in fact, do this.
So which is it? Was the blanket statement about Windows simply wrong?
Or are all the companies and individuals who have, in fact, had
Windows boxes up longer than a month simply lying? All of them?
------------------------------
From: "Spud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS advert says Win98 13 times less reliable than W2k
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:21:37 -0700
"mst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Spud wrote:
>
> (deletia)
>
> > Where Linux will be in 2-3 years
> > depends on a lot of things, not least of which is whether it can
> > sustain the effort to provide a truly competitive solution for the
> > home-user and office-user desktops - which means, among other
things,
> > compatability with existing document formats, (..)
>
> ...precisely the ones that are unnecessarily a moving target,
courtesy
> of MicroShit.
Don't know who "MicroShit" is, but I can comment on Microsoft's
probable way of thinking in regards to this sort of issue. Let's
see... are they in business to support Linux? Nope. Are they in
business to make a profit, both for themselves and for their
shareholders? Yup.
Well, let's see. There's a competing tool out there (say StarOffice)
attempting to provide much the same functionality they're offering.
Thing is, it's free. Letting it "get on board" - letting it get hold
of our document file formats - would mean people could use the free
program instead of their commercial program... is that a good thing
for them or their investors, money-wise? Doesn't seem to be.
However, they'll toss a bone to them anyway. Want to exchange
documents between the two? Fine... why not export your document as
HTML or RTF? Both of those are documented well enough. Oh, sure,
you'll lose any scripting and suchlike... but then again, they're not
in business to make someone else's free products flourish, so whoopee.
That's what I find bizarre about the whole Linux zealot[1]
mentality... "Our OS is free, so everyone, even organizations fully
intent on making profit, should provide everything we need, also for
free, to help put them out of business." Yes, and I'll have some of
what these folks are smoking, too.
[1] As opposed to Linux user/promoter/supporter/advocate/fan.
------------------------------
From: Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.alpha
Subject: Re: Linux = Yet Another Unix
Date: 20 Jul 2000 06:44:18 GMT
Richard Griswold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> I know of one very big company that recently sent
>> out such a memo.
>>
>> It has 3 letters in it's name :)
>>
>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:16:19 -0400, "Colin R. Day"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Why do I doubt this? What company is this?
>> >
>
>Okay, troll, ya got me... I just gotta reply :)
>
>I happen to work for a very big company with 3 letters in its name. I
>also happen to run Linux at work and at home. And I run Lotus Notes on
>Linux via VMWare, tho many of my friends run it via Wine. It works just
>fine.
If the TLA Wobbles refers to is the TLA I have in mind, it just sent out
a memo proclaiming Thou Shalt Not Install W2K.
[snip]
>As far as tech support, I haven't missed not having phone support for
>Linux. IRC + newsgroups works much better :)
At my particular company (which shall remain nameless save that its name
isn't a TLA) getting tech support means call IS, get a ticket number, wait
six weeks, and if you're lucky and the wind is out of the northwest and
Jupiter is in the seventh house they'll send some guy who may or may not
know what he's doing. It's much faster if you can figure it out yourself;
but that, alas, requires one to RTFM, and We Can't Expect The Poor Widdle
Windoze Users To RTFM.
Oh, and I'm one of those "idiots" with a clandestine Linux installation.
Well, not quite clandestine; it's kind of an open secret. You get away
with that when you have a reputation for knowing what you're doing. As for
flooding the network...I did have a glitch where Samba wanted to be the
master browser. Type su and my password. Kill smbd and nmbd. RTFM.
Fix my smb.conf. Start smbd and nmbd again. Help the next guy who wanted
to set up Samba. No problems since. I doubt IS even knows I'm using
Linux.
The fix: "local master = no" in the [global] section.
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
------------------------------
From: "David Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Am I the only one that finds this just a little scary?
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:32:06 +0200
Stephen S. Edwards II wrote in message <8l6763$3m6$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>Christopher Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>[SNIP]
>
>
>* Stephen goes off on a wild tangent momentarily...
>
>Say Chris... maybe you can answer one of my piddly
>questions. I seem to recall that you are of British
>descent, yes?
>
>A few weeks back, I was watching an episode of "Chef"
>(one of the few BBC programs we can see here in the US
>on PBS), and there was a comment about a "good cup" in
>conjunction with a vulgarity, to which Gareth
>(the main character) responds with mild panic.
>
>The fellow who spoke the vulgarity immediately
>apologizes, but then Gareth specifies that he wasn't
>referring to the vulgarity, but that he was
>referring to the "cup" comment, and that he didn't
>want people thinking that "he was taking the mickey".
>
>*BOGGLE!*
>
>I normally find European humor styles quite entertaining,
>but this one really has my brain on its side... what
>in the heck is "taking the mickey?" Any idea what
>the joke might have been, because I've missed it.
>--
I have no idea what the joke is here (having never seen the program), but
surely you have the phrase "taking the mickey" on your side of the world?
It means "taking the piss", "pulling you leg", "having you on", "making a
fool out of you".
Hope that clears up your little cultural confusion.
------------------------------
From: Bob Marcan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.alpha
Subject: Re: Linux = Yet Another Unix
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:25:33 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> On 20 Jul 2000 01:44:33 GMT, Ray Chason
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (.) wrote:
> >
>
> >3) Linux is not for users who refuse to RTFM. Neither is Windoze, but
> > you'll never hear that from Microsoft (which of course refuses to WTFM).
>
> Translation:
>
> Linux is for folks who would rather spend all day
> RTFM instead of setting up their computer and
> actually doing some productive work.
>
I can't belive it. I never heard such idiotic statement in my life.
And i'm born in 1950. Isn't RTFM education?
--
=================================================================
Bob Marcan email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aster tel: +386 (61) 1894-329
Nade Ovcakove 1 fax: +386 (61) 1894-201
1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia http://www.aster.si
=================================================================
------------------------------
From: "Boris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Am I the only one that finds this just a little scary?
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:33:00 -0700
> I agree wholeheartedly. Hey, I like WindowsNT, and most other
> PC hardware/software solutions... they all have merit. But they
> all also have their places for proper implementation as well.
>
> In short: PC hardware does not belong in combat... EVER.
Didn't you see this: http://www.stratus.com/whitep/ftserver/ ?
Boris
------------------------------
From: "David Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Am I the only one that finds this just a little scary?
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:42:52 +0200
Stephen S. Edwards II wrote in message <8l66cb$3m6$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>I recall hearing that Cutler had kept Windows2000 source for
>the Alpha around, and that Microsoft was considering supporting
>that platform again... anyone else hear any such tidbits on this?
>
Of course they kept the source code - MS only stopped work on NT for the
alpha when Compaq stopped paying for the development.
>
>: I would have thought that the US Navy would at least use an open
>: source/viewable source operating system that they could analyse for
suspect
>: code, stability and potential security vulnerabilities.
>
>Actually, they would be better off if they simply contracted
>a company to create very specific hardware/software solutions
>for their needs.
That is what they normally do. In fact, DARPA (the group that gave us the
internet) have a very reliable and flexible real-time OS called RTEMS (Real
Time Executive for Military Systems), which is one of the best completly
free and open OSes for small embedded systems. They even wrote their own
language ADA for higher reliability. They use the software in embedded
systems (missile guideance, for example), but it is not used for PC-style
computers and applications.
Basically, they wanted to be able to run MS Office, and rather than mixing
different OSes, they choose the lowest common denominator.
>I think we're going to see a lot more "ship"
>stories, if what you're sharing here is true. Granted, that
>last one wasn't particularly an OS problem, but I'd sooner
>trust a crocodile with my hand than any PC OS with my life.
>
Did you not hear of the first large ship the US Navy ran on NT? There were
several hundred NT machines running everything on board, all networked
together. Shortly after leaving harbour, the network crashed and brought
every single computer on board to a standstill. The ship was dead in the
water for over two hours before they got essential services back online. And
the cause? It was traced back to someone entering a "0" in the wrong place
in a PC in the stores - the resulting "divide by zero" error killed the
ship.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.sad-people.microsoft.lovers,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish.
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:58:17 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Nathaniel Jay Lee in alt.destroy.microsoft;
[...]
>Just so you realize, this is not an attempt to actually start a
>conversation with you T. Max, just to make a point.
Whatever.
>You dismiss the person you are debating with (re-read those paragraphs
>above) and his views and then tell him that he is incapable of making an
>opposing viewpoint.
He made the contention, I refuted it, he made it again, I told him he
was wrong and didn't seem to want to discuss it. Just so you realize, I
did read the paragraphs, and, in fact, the entire thread. Your
representation of my words is seriously flawed.
>You beg him to debate you, then tell him he is not
>able to.
I invited him to debate me, and he did not seem able to.
>This is exactly the arrogance that bothered me in our
>conversation. Why don't you try just once making a point without trying
>to say everyone but you doesn't matter?
Where on earth did I say everyone but me doesn't matter? Are you *sure*
you're not just reading (and re-reading) things into my words, allowing
your perception to be shaped by your expectations? Is it my fault when
someone posts a naked contention and then expects that I should simply
accept it without consideration? Did I go out of my way to attack
anyone, insult them, engage even in ad hominem attack? I try hard to
point out the reasoning behind my opinion, and even go so far as to try
to help the other side along by pointing out how reasonable, if
inaccurate, their suppositions are, and where the inconsistency of their
assumptions can be found. Apparently, I try too hard, because it makes
me sound like an arrogant know it all.
To be perfectly honest, I think there seems to be a lot of people on
Usenet who wouldn't know a real debate if it slapped them in the face.
*SLAP* *SLAP* *SLAP*
Are *you* going to go head to head with me in intellectual discussion on
the contention that Microsoft would still have users choosing their
products had they never committed an unethical act? I wish this were
one of those things where I could switch sides, just to keep the
discussion going, but to be honest, I honestly don't see how anyone
thinks they could support such a claim if they're actually familiar with
Microsoft's behavior. Its certainly not an outrageous contention, and I
don't call people who want to support it 'clueless', nor intentionally
insult them in any other way. I don't even think they're "wrong"; just
mistaken. But are you under the impression that the rules of the
universe say that all opinions are valid?
But I suppose that's just more arrogance. Who am I to be so arrogant as
to think I'm right and judge others to be mistaken?
Give me fucking break. I'll admit I play hardball, I don't screw around
much with idle conversation. I've got my own problems, and you don't
need to deal with them. But if somebody's going to post something, then
I've got the right to disagree. And while I really do want any kind of
constructive criticism anyone might have, that's because I'm always
willing to learn from someone who's got something to teach. I'm real
sorry I jumped all over you on that 'Windows crashes happen less when
you try to avoid them' thing, and I think I've apologized enough for not
sparing your feelings. Enough is enough; if you don't want to converse,
don't post.
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
[A corporation which does not wish to be identified]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
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======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451746
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:00:37 GMT
Here's today's Tinman digest:
1> [usual fu snipped to save space]
What alleged "fu", Tinman?
1> Yet true, nonetheless.
Incorrect, Tinman.
1> Yet true.
Incorrect, Tinman.
1> I don't.
Then why did you refer to "bad-imitation-of-phillip-glass-wannabe"?
1> Thanks for the correction. Now I know how to spell Philip's name.
I wasn't referring to the spelling, Tinman. I was referring to what
you called "spelling", hence the quotation marks.
1> Too bad you can't learn.
Illogical, given that I already know how to "spell" Philip Glass'
name, Tinman.
1> Why not provide someone engaging in "entertainment" with a real
1> conversation?
Not worth that much time, Tinman.
1> And we started a conversation into which you jumped. ('
So, you're admitting that it was Jacques who jumped in, thereby
contradicting your earlier position.
1> Irrelevent,
Incorrect, Tinman.
1> but begs a question: Why do you fail to place responses
1> appropriately?
You're erroneously presupposing that I fail to place responses
appropriately, Tinman.
2> On the contrary. ('
Even more pontification.
3> The ones that result from digestion, and which nuture the blooming
3> daisies.
You're presupposing the existence of emissions, Tinman.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.sad-people.microsoft.lovers,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish.
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:04:51 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Yannick in alt.destroy.microsoft;
>----- Original Message -----
>From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Newsgroups:
>comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.sad-people.microsoft.lovers,alt.destroy.microsoft
>Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2000 3:32 AM
>Subject: Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish.
>> >My DAW is a prime example of this method. It runs Win98SE and has
>> >never crashed. Not once, not ever.
>>
>> OK. What, precisely, is "SE". And how many applications have you
>> installed since you got it?
>
>You have a problem with acronyms.
No, I just didn't know it stood for "Second Edition". The only problem
I have with acronyms is that I like to know what they mean.
>Windows 98SE is the generally used acronym for Windows 98 Second Edition. If you
>missed
>the train, you will learn that for about a year, Microsoft is selling an updated
>release
>of Windows 98.
I didn't miss the train; I threw the schedule down the trash-chute. The
last thing I need is trying to keep up with which flavor of crap people
are being forced to choke down these days.
>Personally, I only have Windows 98, so I'll tell you the differences from what I
>remember
>: it's Windows 98 with its service pack, IE5 instead of IE4, and some extra features
>such
>as Internet Connection Sharing, (and updated drivers, I think).
I don't even want to think about it.
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
[A corporation which does not wish to be identified]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
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