Linux-Advocacy Digest #817, Volume #27 Thu, 20 Jul 00 15:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish. (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Advocacy and Programmers... (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Maximum Linux (Nathaniel Jay Lee)
Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows? ("Drestin Black")
Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows? ("Drestin Black")
Re: look, don't talk ("Rich C")
Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows? ("Drestin Black")
Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows? ("Drestin Black")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.sad-people.microsoft.lovers,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Linux is blamed for users trolling-wish.
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:52:41 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Nathaniel Jay Lee in alt.destroy.microsoft;
>"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>> Give me fucking break. I'll admit I play hardball, I don't screw around
>> much with idle conversation. I've got my own problems, and you don't
>> need to deal with them. But if somebody's going to post something, then
>> I've got the right to disagree. And while I really do want any kind of
>> constructive criticism anyone might have, that's because I'm always
>> willing to learn from someone who's got something to teach.
>
>It's hard to learn when you are convinced anyone with an opinion (or
>even facts) that disagree with what you 'know' can't possibly be valid.
>That's my whole point.
And my whole point is this is a complete fabrication of both my attitude
and my opinion.
>You can constructively say to someone, "I think
>you may be mistaken" without going out of your way to make it sound
>like, "Until you agree with me I will not give you the time of day."
>That is my point. And I am not the only one here that has seen this
>behaviour and is bothered by it.
Grow up. There are plenty of people who don't seem to be so bothered by
it that they can't keep up their end of a discussion. I don't like to
sugar-coat things; I'm assuming we're all relatively adult-like. The
majority of people who are supposedly bothered by my behavior are the
ones who can't support their premise with much beyond naked contention
and vague common sense thinking. In fact, whether you agree with me or
not, I'll give you the time of day, the day of the week, and the
farmer's almanac for the current month. The amount of discussion and
illustration which I provide is positively disfunctional, and that
behavior has been noted as well.
>You say you want to learn, but you go
>out of your way not to. And anyone that disagrees with you is
>considered flat out wrong. How do you learn from that? As far as you
>pathetic apologies, saying "I'm sorry if your too stupid to realize I'm
>right" doesn't cover it.
Not only after a hundred and fifty lines of explanation why I'm right?
I'm just like any other poster; I think I'm right until someone "proves"
otherwise to me. Forgive me for owning up to it. My "pathetic
apologies" are generally misquoted in your message, but I have said
things that are generally of the same sentiment; I reserve phrases like
"too stupid" only for the extreme examples, like JS/PL or Roger. But
just because everyone has a right to their opinion does not mean that
everyone's opinion is equally valid. Do I blatantly regard other's
opinion as invalid just because I disagree with it? Hell no; I am one
of the few posters who can see validity in even the arguments of those
who disagree with my opinion, and am not beyond pointing out the
validity, and why it nevertheless does not produce a correct result.
>I don't even know why I bothered, but something about constant
>arrogance, and the assumption that you are the closest thing to god on
>the planet really bothers me. Especially when you keep saying you are
>here to learn.
Generally, I learn by talking. Having to explain my views in contrast
to any other views which might be posted gives me an opportunity to
review and revise those views as necessary to ensure they account for as
much as possible.
> You remain convinced you are right, and remain convinced
>no-one else can be right (even when they agree with you) and you will
>not learn.
I only remain convinced no-one else *is* right until I am convinced that
someone else is right. You may want to assume, because of the poorly
veiled arrogance in my attitude, that I think no-one else "can" be
right, but that is a false assumption, demonstrably.
> I'm quite sure you think I'm a fucking dickhead for going
>out of my way to point this out to you. That's quite alright. Most
>people here feel that way about me and I don't give a shit.
Case in point; I don't think you're a dickhead for trying so
repetitively to correct my attitude. I do think you are over-doing it a
bit. As you have pointed out, the sentiment that I'm a dickhead amongst
those in the newsgroups is not rare. To steal a line from the Microsoft
droids, I figure "they're just jealous". :-)
>But seeing
>someone make a statement, and then go out of their way not to follow
>through on it just bothers me. In fact, arrogance in and of itself
>isn't the real problem. You want to learn, you can by actually
>considering a statement before jumping on it.
Nah; my ways a lot faster. Start with a hypothesis, present it for
argument, consider the refutations, and then revise, and repost, the
hypothesis. Its only when a hypothesis which cannot be easily refuted
conflicts with somebody's pet theory which is supported only by "common
sense" assumptions that things get messy.
>And BTW, I agree with the previous poster. Saying that you know 100%
>without a doubt that MS would have failed had they flied straight isn't
>something that is realistic.
Nor is saying you know 100% without a doubt that MS would still be a
successful software company on their technical merits alone.
> If they had straigtened up in 1979, no one
>will ever know whether they would have been just one of the big boys (of
>the software industry), a bit player, or nothing. I don't see why it's
>so hard to believe that is a valid statement.
It is hard to believe that is a *correct* statement, because of the
massive amount of evidence we now have that Microsoft started their
unethical behavior in 1979, and have continued it non-stop ever since,
with regular *documented* examples occurring at each major opportunity
for competition which appeared. The assumption that Microsoft would
have started at all in 1979 if they had been "straight" seems unlikely
to be valid and seems a major assumption. The argument that MS *may*
have been successful is certainly valid, but a suggestion that they
would have been does not inherit that validity. If it stands up to
argument, we might consider it correct. If it doesn't, it is not, and
that is not my fault, or my doing, simply because I can provide argument
that *may* contradict it. You can debate the evidence, you can debate
the contradiction, but you can't debate the issue if the only support
for your claims is a stubborn insistence that your opinion is valid.
>I have no love of MS, and
>think their actions are deplorable, but saying what if.... wouldn't
>automatically make me wrong.
No, but it doesn't mean that whatever you follow the "what if..." with
is right. You still have to defend it from reasonable consideration; if
you cannot refute the arguments against it, then you *are* wrong.
>And yes, I am one of those people that think all "opinions" are right.
>Because it is your "opinion". If you state it as a fact, then there is
>something to argue, if you state it as your opinion, there is nothing to
>argue about. If I say, in my opinion, I like the way something looks,
>who are you to tell me I'm wrong? Do you know my opinion better than
>me?
There is a definitive distinction between saying that you like the way
something looks, and saying that something looks 'nice'. The first is a
statement of your opinion; the second is a supposition of fact based on
your opinion. The second one can be considered false, not because of
your opinion, but because of a common consensus or reasoning that
whether something looks nice is not only dependant on your opinion, but
on some objective consideration of the situation.
That's why I don't couch all of my statements with "my opinion"
disclaimers; it is a way to avoid discussion, not a way to defend your
views. I do have a blanket disclaimer in my .sig, but nobody seems to
take it seriously, except me. Likewise, claims that the reasoning I
provide are "just your opinion", is merely another way of refusing to
discuss the issue. I state my opinions baldly, often with the
appearance of fact, because they are the result of conscious reasoning.
I've never gotten bent out of shape when someone reasonably disagrees
with my opinion; I hold it, but do not cherish it. It is a convenience
for me, and I'll happily abandoned it to its fate if a more attractive
opinion, which seems more accurate, consistent, or practical, is
available to me.
>Arguing an opinion is always a losing battle. In the case of this
>argument (where it started anyway) no one can "know" what MS would have
>done had they been a legal company from the start. They weren't, and
>you cannot rewind history to test out this little theory.
Quite true. Does that mean there is no reasonable way to ascertain
whether it seems likely whether MS would have been able to survive
through actual competition? Does that mean if I can point out that
someone else's opinion seems to ignore a preponderance of fact, I should
avoid doing so because I'm arguing their opinion?
Sorry, Nathanial, opinions can be argued as to their reasonability and
basis in verified fact. Some opinions are, in fact, much much more
valid than others, because they are based on more facts and derived
through better reasoning. I can't argue what your opinion is; you can
hold a contrary opinion from reality if that is your desire. But don't
bother trying to post it if you think it has some special merit because
it is your "opinion", not a statement of you conclusions about an issue
you have reasonably considered.
>I don't know why I'm bothering here. I'm sure I'll get another: You
>don't matter because I say so...response from you. That's fine.
Not if that is they way you have characterized any of my previous
messages. Its not fine at all. If I don't agree with your opinion, I
am not saying your opinion doesn't matter. I'm saying I don't agree
with it, and generally presenting a large amount of discussion
explaining why. An inability to confront that discussion *on its own
merits*, independently of your personal opinion of me, is not fine. I
would rather you take your opinion as seriously as I take it, and
attempt to sort out assumption from presumption, and reasoning from
conclusion.
>I just
>hope some of this sinks in. If you want to be arrogant, there's nothing
>wrong with that. Just bring something in to be arrogant about. Have a
>reason behind your arrogance. You say you want to learn, but an
>arrogant person learning is next to impossible. You cannot learn if you
>already believe yourself to know all.
And you cannot presume to learn if you don't believe that you know what
you already do know. Hand-waving contradictory opinions as "just
opinion, and you just think your opinion is right because its yours and
you're arrogant" is not a good basis for intellectual discussion.
Someone presented a hypothesis, I illustrated broadly how it was
contradictory to facts and evidence, and tentatively concluded that
unless further reasoning or information is presented in support of the
hypothesis, it is false. I don't think that's arrogance, or a matter of
arguing based on opinion. Learn from it or not, at your option.
--
T. Max Devlin
Manager of Research & Educational Services
Managed Services
[A corporation which does not wish to be identified]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-[Opinions expressed are my own; everyone else, including
my employer, has to pay for them, subject to
applicable licensing agreement]-
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Advocacy and Programmers...
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:58:30 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Pan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:07:45 -0700
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>>
>> That said... Tcl and Perl are both interpretive languages (note that
>> Perl is compiled into an intermediate form).
>
>I thought that Perl is interpreted entirely at run-time.
It is and it isn't; my understanding, as explained by other
posters, is that Perl source is compiled into an intermediate
form and the intermediate form is then interpreted.
I'm not at all sure that the intermediate form is ever seen
outside of the Perl interpreter's memory, however -- although
I think there is an option to force a Perl core dump and another tool
that takes that core dump and makes it into a standalone executable.
An interesting idea, actually.
>
>> VB is compiled.
>> Whether this means anything for GUIs is not at all clear.
>
>VB is a bloated dog.
I can't disagree, although I also can't say I use it on
a regular basis. :-)
Mind you, there are certain elements who make the same complaint
about Java -- but at least in Java, one can contain the problem
by not using the GUI, making it relatively lean. At least
in theory.
And C++ doesn't have a GUI at all per se; it's an add-on.
(Same as Perl, in a sense.)
[.sigsnip]
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
From: Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Maximum Linux
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:54:54 -0500
Mikey wrote:
>
> Thus Sprake Nathaniel Jay Lee:
> > capitalized along with it. So, what do you say? Is it 'window
> > managers' or 'Windows Managers'?
>
> AFAIK, from MetroX to Enlightenment, I've heard it called "window
> manager"
>
> > Does anyone here get the Maximum Linux magazine?
>
> I get it at the news-stand. For the most part, it's pretty kewl. IMHO,
> they need to cut down on the "fanboy" factor and chill on the M$
> bashing. I really dig that they have a distro with each issue.
I have also asked them about their current trend towards being extremely
Windows-centric. In any given article or column you will see just as
many references towards Windows (good and bad) as you do towards Linux.
I keep hoping it can just be a cool Linux mag, but for the most part
I've been disappointed. It's almost like a bunch of kids with a new
toy. They know it's cool, but they have absolutely no idea how to tell
other people (but that doesn't mean that they will wait until they
figure out how to tell others: blah, blah, blah). Like you say, they
definitely have way too much of the 'fanboy' factor, and not enough real
information. So far, the Perl articles are the only bit of useful
information I've seen. A diamond in the rough in my opinion. I see
great potential, but little else.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nathaniel Jay Lee
------------------------------
From: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows?
Date: 20 Jul 2000 14:02:48 -0500
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> Drestin Black wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > >
> > > Drestin Black wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Spud wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > > > No..he also replaces big, ORACLE databases servers on Unix
with
> > > > > > > Microsoft
> > > > > > > Exchange running on LoseNT....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > NOT!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "NOT" is absolutely correct. Only a complete idiot would even
> > > > > > *contemplate* replacing a database server with a messaging
server.
> > > > > > Whoops, someone did contemplate it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, that would be resident troll, Drestin Black, who claims to
> > > > > do exactly that.
> > > >
> > > > WHAT?!!! What the HELL are you talking about. I suggested no such
thing.
> > > > Withdraw your lie.
> > >
> > > Obviously, you aren't communicating coherently.
> > > Care to revise your earlier statements.
> >
> > ok Aaron - show me where I suggest replacing an oracle database with an
> > exchange server. Please, be very specific.
>
> You were telling us about how you regularly replace Sun servers
> with LoseNT servers.
>
We have replaced sun servers with NT servers, yes.
No where do you see "Oracle" nor "Exchange" mentioned.
We replace Oracle with SQL Server even more regularly because people demand
higher performance for less (come to think of it, that's why they are moving
to W2K boxes).
You failed to validate your claim and very most definately misquoted and
falsely attributed BS to me. You should apologize.
------------------------------
From: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows?
Date: 20 Jul 2000 14:04:19 -0500
"WesTralia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Drestin Black wrote:
> >
> > "Pete Goodwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:8l10dm$5q4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > In article <JYNc5.21905$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > > "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes... and I think VB is closer to universal than C++ or Perl which
> > > most
> > > > "good" programmers could figure out. I mean, "IF this THEN that ELSE
> > > > theotherthing kinda stuff is what VB proudly touts, no semicolons,
and
> > > > brackets all over the place. Just write the code and get the job
done.
> > > I
> > > > like that...
> > >
> > > What about
> > >
> > > IF x THEN
> > > IF y THEN
> > > ELSE
> > > ENDIF
> > > ELSE
> > > ENDIF
> > >
> > > Does VB cope with nested IF THEN ELSE? How does it know which IF the
> > > ELSE applies to? Is it terminated by the ENDIF?
> >
> > of course. What you wrote is perfectly valid. I think it's pefectly
obvious
> > which ELSE belongs to which IF and which ENDIF terminates which IF. It
reads
> > easier:
> >
> > IF x THEN
> > IF y THEN
> > do something
> > ELSE
> > another choice
> > END IF
> > ELSE
> > completely different choice
> > END IF
> >
> > (I used tabs above, I hope OE formats it right)
> >
> > The IFs, ELSE's and ENDIF's are pushed and popped off a stack.
> >
>
>
> Drestinnnnnnn.... you've been busy reading some big comp sci books,
> haven't you? You are tossing around words like 'pushed', 'popped',
> and 'stack' like a pro!
>
> I do see it took you a full day to reply with your new upgraded
> lingo. See what a little research can do for you!
>
you know, wes, that's just plain uncalled for. Are you always this rude or
just incapable of social skills. Did I insult you? huh? Why would you
attempt to insult me? Is this the sort of childish behaviour we can expect
when all else fails you? Give me a break...
gee, maybe I "tossed" around those words "like a pro" because (say it say
it) I have been one longer than you could pronounce PC.
------------------------------
From: "Rich C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: look, don't talk
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:06:34 -0400
Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Cihl wrote:
> > --
> > You have changed the signature included in your e-mail.
> > For these changes to take effect, you must restart your computer!
> > Do you wish to restart your computer now?
> > [YES] [NO]
>
> If I select no and try to continue working, will I get one message out
> combining the previous and the new signature, and then a BSOD when I
> attempt to find out why? If not, it isn't a properly implemented MS
> system.
Instead of making stuff up about wonderful microsoft, why not talk about a
REAL bug:
Lookout Express cannot handle more than 3 signature files, even though it
will allow you to enter them. Check it out. If you create 4 sigs and then
try to set the 4th one as default, it won't insert it automatically,
although it will let you select it. How's that for well tested software?!
--
Rich C.
"Because light travels faster than sound, many people appear to be
intelligent, until you hear them speak."
------------------------------
From: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows?
Date: 20 Jul 2000 14:06:47 -0500
"abraxas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8l4o9p$23pu$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry but this is a decision based on more than a few factors. I
have
> > often wished I could stand up and say, "HEY! You know who I am?!" and
let
> > loose with my company's name so I could proudly stand with it's/my/our
> > achievements and (few) moments in the press.
>
> If you recall, a few of us did find out who you are and where you work
months
> ago, and it really wasnt all that impressive.
You are: a) wrong, b) an idiot, c) both
>
> You lie too much.
>
kettle? black? familiar words? should be - you've faild to show even basic
computer knowledge and nothing but an extensive ability to just simply annoy
the piss outta those who haven't killfiled you yet.
> > But, I am writing here my own
> > personal opinions, not always necessarily those I'd share with every
client.
> > And it's unfair to my company for any mistakes I may make here to taint
it.
> > It's with a bad taste that I assume this triple layered aninimity and
I'm
> > both thankful and sorry to my friend who lets me borrow his pseudonym
and
> > news account to post, via Terminal Services :) You would not believe the
> > e-mail he's got and forwarded to me. That and the two people who went so
far
> > as to find his personal home address and post it with phone number.
> >
>
> Lie.
you could not possibly know and therefore have no basis to make any such
remark. In fact, YOU are the liar.
>
> You arent a programmer, you do not know how to code, you are a lowly
> 'IT' professional who WISHES he was intelligent enough to understand
> what he claims.
>
> Pathetic.
no, truely, the most pathetic is yourself... grow up.
------------------------------
From: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just curious, how do I do this in Windows?
Date: 20 Jul 2000 14:07:11 -0500
"Nathaniel Jay Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Drestin Black wrote:
> >
> > "Nathaniel Jay Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Drestin Black wrote:
> > <snip> >
> > > > oh give me a break... sigh... you know that no matter what I would
write
> > > > you'd just pick it apart and either call it shit or say it was
copied.
> > It's
> > > > a no win scenario. I haven't used Fortran since college (or RPG and
> > Cobol).
> > > > C++ , it takes half a page to write hello world, fuck that. So...
piss
> > > > off...
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > #include<iostream>
> > >
> > > main()
> > > {
> > > cout << "Hello World!" << endl;
> > > return 0;
> > > }
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > Um, half a page?!?!
> >
> > I'm sorry, I exagerated a little :)
> >
> > of couse, in BASIC this would be
> >
> > --------------------
> > PRINT "Hello World!"
> > --------------------
>
> Well, joke to joke...
>
> To each his own and all that....
Sorry? "joke to joke"? I don't follow.
------------------------------
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