Linux-Advocacy Digest #893, Volume #27 Sun, 23 Jul 00 16:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Malloy digest, volume 2451749 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: If Microsoft starts renting apts (was: If Microsoft starts renting apps)
("Stephen S. Edwards II")
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451749 (tinman)
Re: Why use Linux? (Oldayz)
Re: BASIC == Beginners language (Was: Just curious.... ("Christopher Smith")
Vacuum, void, null... .NET (Eric Bennett)
Re: Windows98
Re: The old Basics sucked under the hood as well (was Re: BASIC == Beginners
language)
Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451736 (Tholen) (tholenbot)
Re: If MicYX.I4.M(tarts renting apts (was: If Microsoft starts renting/X-;G@(1)
("Stephen S. Edwards II" &\$)D3E.cyclic.aux.net>)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Malloy digest, volume 2451749
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 19:31:29 GMT
Here's today's Malloy digest. Once again he ignores all the unresolved
issues, such as his alleged reciprocation, his illogic regarding his
frequenting of "these precincts", how he tried to speak for everyone
else, his parroting, the nonexistent chat with the "TPTB", his use of
the word "necessarily" inappropriately, and so on. It must be a cold
day in Hades because the fact is that there was no "chat with TPTB".
There is no "TPTB" at UofH.
121> Tholen tholes again:
121>
121> So should you, Tholen, but that would be consistent of you and we know you
121> can't be consistent. Hypocrite.
122> Tholen, the tireless tholer:
122>
122> We've wondered where the lengthy postings you cause have gone, Tholen, and
122> have assumed that your "chat" with TPTB at UofH shut you down. Let's see
122> many more typical Tholen postings of great length to prove me wrong!
122>
122> Tholen, your "facts" have fallen and they can't get up. It'll be cold day
122> in Hades before you "drop some facts" on anyone here.
123> Tholen tholes some more:
123>
123> What's a "ressponse," Tholen? Explanation, please.
123>
123> On the basis that it does and it's very rare from you.
------------------------------
From: "Stephen S. Edwards II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.fan.bill-gates,soc.singles,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: If Microsoft starts renting apts (was: If Microsoft starts renting
apps)
Date: 23 Jul 2000 19:41:06 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
: > >> >I wrote it.
: > >>
: > >> No, really.
: > >
: > >Do I have to post a damn copyright notice?
: >
: > Steal one of those too?
: you're not funny, you're just droll.
Sorry Aaron. I read something similar to this way back in the days of
Windows v3.1. It's anything but your concoction.
--
.-----.
|[ ] | Stephen Edwards | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
| = :| "I'm too polite to use that word, so I'll just say,
| | 'bite me, you baboon-faced ass-scratcher.'"
|_..._| --SEGA's Seaman on the "F" word.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (tinman)
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451749
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:41:59 -0400
In article <4EHe5.2552$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Here's today's Tinman digest:
>
> 1> That alone is insufficient to qualify as pontification.
>
> Incorrect, Tinman. The absence of any reasoning on your part is
> quite sufficient.
Of course. To emulate you doesn't require reasoning, it precludes it.
> 1> Don't you know, Davie?
>
> Who is that, Tinman?
Don't you know, Davie?
> 1> On the contrary.
>
> Even more pontification.
>
> 1> ("
>
> What's that supposed to mean, Tinman?
Don't you know, Davie?
> 1> I already have,
>
> I wasn't talking about some previous alleged spelling error, Tinman.
> I was referring to the new one that you claimed I made.
The one just above.
> 1> yet you persist, to no end.
>
> You persisted with a new claim of a spelling error on my part, Tinman.
There, you did it again. ("
> 1> That is self-evident.
>
> On what basis do you claim that it is self-evident, Tinman?
That which is self-evident provides it own evidence. Don't you understand
the term, Davie?
> 1> On the basis that is it readily apparent.
>
> On what basis do you can that it is readily apparent, Tinman?
That is self-evident.
> 1> The amount of time you spend tholenating is a good example.
>
> I don't spend any time "tholenating", Tinman.
Experience shows otherwise.
> 1> One acts in a tholensque manner.
>
> Illogical, Tinman.
On the contrary.
> 1> If you didn't tholenate, you wouldn't be involved in these threads.
>
> Illogical, Tinman.
On the contrary.
> 1> The amount of time you spend conversing is a good example.
>
> Incorrect, Tinman.
On the contrary.
> 1> Discourse free of tholenisms qualify.
>
> What do you consider "tholenisms", Tinman? That's sufficiently
> subjective to enable you to get any result you want.
('
> 1> Deja
>
> And how did Deja allow you to do that, Tinman?
It's a search engine, Davie.
> 1> And then we stopped tholenating and began conversing.
>
> Incorrect, Tinman.
On the contrary.
> 1> See above.
>
> The above is subjective, Tinman, allowing you to get whatever
> result you want.
('
> 1> Tholenation isn't discussion, Davie.
>
> Who is that, Tinman?
Tholenation is a what, not a who, Davie.
> 1> How ironic, coming from you, Davie.
>
> Who is that, Tinman?
You. Obviously you agree, or you wouldn't answer.
> 1> See above.
>
> The above is subjective, Tinman, allowing you to get whatever
> result you want.
('
> 1> Your utterance is hardly an example of anything I've said.
>
> Non sequitur.
Incorrect.
> 1> ('
>
> What's that supposed to mean, Tinman?
Don't you know, Davie?
> 1> See above.
>
> The above is subjective, Tinman, allowing you to get whatever
> result you want.
Incorrect
> 1> Again, your utterance is hardly an example of anything I've said.
>
> Non sequitur.
Incorrect.
> 1> ('
>
> What's that supposed to mean, Tinman?
Hit the turntable, Davie, you're stuck.
> 1> Hit the turntable, Davie, you're stuck.
>
> Who is that, Tinman?
Who is "who," Davie?
> 1> Hit the turntable, Davie, you're stuck.
>
> Who is that, Tinman?
Hit the turntable, Davie, you're stuck.
> 1> On the contrary.
>
> Even more pontification.
Illogical.
> 1> My experience.
>
> Classic circular reasoning.
Of course, you're stuck. Hit the turntable, Davie.
--
______
tinman
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Oldayz)
Subject: Re: Why use Linux?
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 19:52:29 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 22 Jul 2000 18:49:15 -0700, Spud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[snips]
>
>"Oldayz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>> First of all, let me make sure that I understand the point you stated:
>> Win9x may not be god of stability but for the things it was meant for
>> it's sufficiently stable.
>
>Not quite; what I'm saying is, it was really intended as a single-user
>desktop system, where crashes were at best annoying, not fatal... so it was
>designed more for ease-of-use than stability. In those environments, is it
>stable enough? Yes. In more critical environments, such as an office, is
>it stable enough? Possibly not - but then, why are you running it in that
>environment anyway?
>
That's how I understood you in the first place.
>> I beg to differ. Here's a story: I run linux/win95 dual boot for about
>> a year. 99% of time I'm in linux, but sometimes I would go to win95 and
>> play a game or two. It crashes sometimes but it's not a huge deal.
>>
>> Now, a few days ago I went to a friend of mine who wanted me to explain
>> her some web design things. She has one of those e-machines, pII-350ish,
>> 128megs of ram, win98. I went there and I used: IE, homesite, dreamweaver,
>> photoshop5.5. In a matter of a few hours it crashed ~5 times. One time it
>was
>> IE, other PS5.5, and the rest I don't remember. I lost all work a few
>times
>> too. I was _shocked_. My impression before that was that win98 is quite
>> a bit slower and bigger but stabler and has more drivers and stuff, but
>> it seems that it's ridiculously unstable. My guess is that people in
>> general don't multitask much (especially fat programs like photoshop and
>> homesite, dreamweaver) and use IE only by itself and use autosave feature
>> all the time (if a said program has it).
>
>Again, depends on the use. We have a Win9x box we run a server off... but
>the server's only purpose in life is to host a webcam. The box is also used
>for games, minor web maintenance, e-mail, and other light-duty stuff.
>
>We also have a Win2K box. Guess which box we run the heavy server off, the
>server that actually makes us some money? Guess which box we use to
>maintain >1Gb of web content?
>
>Again, let me reiterate; if you're doing typical _home_ use things -
>maintaining your 10 page web site, writing letters, doing home accounting,
>etc - then the occasional crash isn't a big deal; at most it's annoying,
>you're not losing any data likely to cause you financial hardship. If
>you're working on sensitive data, anything that will cause you such
>hardship, then you're using the wrong tool for the job.
>
I see what you're saying but I have to disagree - what we were doing was
definitely typical home usage (unless you consider multitasking to be
outside of that field).
>> That's not acceptable. If everyone had a dualboot system to start with,
>> linux/kde|gnome and win98, do you really see people using win98?
>
>Absolutely; if nothing else, as a games platform.
I agree - at first, people who play alot of games would keep booting back
to windows for them. But not everybody plays alot of games, and linux
has several better games - like homm3, mythII, quake3, civ-CTP.
But in a matter of one year, game manufacturers would switch to linux,
seeing that everybody uses linux with the exception of playing games.
>
>> One more story from my work: I had to come over to a coworker's system to
>> go to some website and show her something. I looked for Netscape but she
>> didn't have it. I started IE and went to the site. Crash. It was NT so IE
>> crashed alone and I simply had to restart it. Go to that site again,
>Crash!
>
>Yeah, I've run across a couple of sites like that.
>
>Note a couple of thngs here, though...
>
>1) The discussion was about Windows 98.
>2) Now you're discussing IE and NT.
>3) The main issue with Windows 98 was stability.
>4) NT didn't crash when IE went down.
>
>Ahh, notice anything? I do. NT didn't crash. This tells me she was using
>the _right_ tool for the job. She's in an office environment, so she's
>running NT, where IE crashing doesn't also bring down her other apps and
>documents. Again, right in line with what I was saying.
>
>Do, please, keep up with such stories - they just help prove my point.
The point of the story was to prove that people keep using MS software
even if it's quality is unacceptable simply because they don't know
better. Yes, NT was a better choice than Win98 in the office, but I was
talking about IE - which wasn't a better choice than Netscape and yet it
was used, which probably explains how it got to be used by 83% of internet
surfers.
>
>
>
--
----------
Andrei
------------------------------
From: "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: BASIC == Beginners language (Was: Just curious....
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 06:03:32 +1000
"Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > "Stephen S. Edwards II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:8le53a$aor$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > : The problem is fools like DB who have a trade-school education,
> > > : yet think they're in posession of PhD level knowledge.
> > >
> > > The problem is also often people who think that simply because they
are
> > > experts on one platform, assume that they are experts on others...
> >
> > The problem is (and always has been) people who think they're a lot
smarter
> > than they really are, or that they "know best".
>
> All one has to do is post to usenet to find our they're not.
Not really. Since everyone's an expert, who do you believe ? :)
------------------------------
From: Eric Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Vacuum, void, null... .NET
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:04:14 -0400
Some comments on the nothingness that is Microsoft .NET white paper:
http://joel.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$133
Excerpt:
=====
What's going on here? I couldn't find one single idea that could
actually be implemented in a software product in that entire white
paper. Instead of providing a list of features, Microsoft provides a
list of amorphous "benefits" like this one:
Web sites become flexible services that can interact, and exchange
and leverage each other's data. [Ibid]
That's a "feature" of this exciting .NET architecture. The fact that it
is so broad, vague, and high level that it doesn't mean anything at all
doesn't seem to be bothering anyone. Or how about:
Microsoft .NET makes it possible to find services and people with
which to interact. [Ibid]
Oh, joy! Five years after Altavista went live, and two years after Larry
Page and Sergei Brin actually invented a radically better search engine,
Microsoft is pretending like there's no way to search on the Internet
and they're going to solve this problem for us. The whole document is
exactly like that.
=====
--
Eric Bennett ( http://www.pobox.com/~ericb/ )
Cornell University / Chemistry & Chemical Biology
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows98
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:27:50 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Spud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:QIse5.6007$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:04:26 -0400, Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> Example: I drop a bomb on a client PC. Oops. Drop a new client PC
> in, with Win2K Pro (or even Win98+2K client tools) installed - which I
> can do from a drive image in a matter of a few minutes. Log onto the
> server and voila! There's your desktop, just the way you left it.
> With your applications ready to use.
Another case of Microsoft trying to playing catchup with the features that
Linux has had from the beginning and unix for years before that.
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The old Basics sucked under the hood as well (was Re: BASIC == Beginners
language)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 13:03:57 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
>
> If you peek under the hood of one of the old interpreted line-numbered
> Basics, at least the various Microsoft implementations, you find something
> about as horrible as the language itself.
That is oh so true!
MS BASIC, in any of its incarnations was not self-consistent in the way
that is stored the text of the programs in RAM. As you mentioned it would
convert the line number into a two bute unsigned integer. That was that
line number at the start of the line only, the rest were left as ASCII.
That meant that a program would consume more memory as the number of digits
in the line numbers increased.
Every line of program consumed a few bytes for overhead. The MS BASIC used
the colon to delimit statement on multistatement lines. The overhead of
additional statement on the same line was one byte, the colon. In addition
to reduction of memory overhead multistatement lines also reduced the
performance overhead of the interpreter when when it had to locate a
particular line of code.
White space had no meaning to the lexer. So to save memory programs were
often written with no white spaces between.
All this would lead to writeing programs like this:
1DEFINTA:DIMA(100,100):FORI=0TO100:FORJ=0TO100:READA(I,J):NEXTI,J
2DATA1,4,2,3,4,,5,6,,2,3,4,6,7,43,2,23,4,3,45,6,8,9,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,
1,2,3....
When the lines of a program was listed the a space character was inserted
between the line number and the text of the line. So entering a line like:
1DEFINTA:DIMA(100,100):FORI=0TO100:FORJ=0TO100:READA(I,J):NEXTI,J
would list or llist as:
1 DEFINTA:DIMA(100,100):FORI=0TO100:FORJ=0TO100:READA(I,J):NEXTI,J
Harmless? Not quite! When entering or editing a line you were limited to
either 255, 254, or 250 characters per line--depending on version. If a
line is enter in the first format above to the maximun line length limit and
then the line is edited, it would overflow the buffer, be truncated, or the
edit command would fail to execute--again depending on the version of the
interpreter. That one extra space character would not be the only thing
that could lengthen the program line after it had already been entered. The
question mark was used as a shorthand for entering PRINT.
Entering this for a line of a program:
100FORI=0TO10:?A$(I):NEXT
would become:
100 FORI=0TO10:PRINTA$(I):NEXT
A total increase of 5 characters. Compund that by entering multiple
question mark for PRINT on a very long line and just wait for the limit to
reached.
Like the ? problem that was also the REM.
Some dialects of BASIC used the REM statement and others used REMARK. MS
BASIC was inconsistant on this issue as well with irritating side effects.
Some versions would support the REM statement only. This was to most benign
stiuation If someone were to use the REMARK keyword; it would be stored as
four bytes, onve for the REM token and ARK as the first three character of
the remark. Some versions would support the REMARK statement only. In this
case the statement would have to be entered as REMARK.
This was not enough for MS BASIC, they also permitted the use if the
exclaimation point as a subsitute for REM or REMARK in some version. Some
versions had a sepperate internal token value for the exclaimation point
while others did not. In those version that had a sepperate token the
exclaimation points would be preserved. In the other versions that did not
have a sepperate token for the exclaimation point but still permitted that
use of that character, it would be converted into a REM or REMARK just like
the question mark into PRINT--with the same problems.
------------------------------
From: tholenbot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Tinman digest, volume 2451736 (Tholen)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:11:23 -0400
In article <XB8e5.62$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Slava Pestov"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> tholenbot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > In article <euWd5.132$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Slava Pestov"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >> tholenbot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > In article <lWvd5.50$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Slava Pestov"
> >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (tinman) wrote:
> >> >> >> Another unsubstantiated claim.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Check the archive, Slava.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> The burden of archive checking is yours, tinman. You made the
> >> >> unsubstantiated claim.
> >> >
> >> > How ironic, coming from someone who makes unsubstantiated claims
> >> > without
> >> > checking archives.
> >>
> >> How ironic you allege that my claims are 'unsubstantiated' when you
> >> have just made one yourself.
> >
> > Illogical.
>
> Balderdash.
Typical pontification.
> > I have not made one of your claims.
>
> Correct, but irrelevant, given that I never claimed you did.
Incorrect, Slava.
> > Still having reading
> > comprehension problems, Slava?
>
> See what I mean?
Illogical.
> >
> >> >
> >> >> >> What alleged "Tholen emissions"?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The ones that result from digestion,
> >> >>
> >> >> I see no evidence of "digestion" here.
> >> >
> >> > More evidence of your reading comprehension problems.
> >>
> >> Incorrect, given that neither I nor tinman are currently being
> >> digested.
> >
> > See what I mean?
>
> Yes, but your meaning is incorrect, thus it is irrelevant.
See what I mean? Gearing up to lose another argument, Slava?0
> >
> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > now that Tholen's back on CSMA.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I wonder how Dave Tholen would react to your claims that he's
> >> >> >> >> "back on CSMA".
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Ask him, I'm sure he'll answer to your satisfaction.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I'm not here for "satisfaction", tinman.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Then why are you here?
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Don't you know?
> >> >
> >> > I see you didn't answer the question.
> >>
> >> The answer was self-evident, Eric.
> >
> > On what basis do you make this claim?
>
> On the basis that the answer was self-evident, Eric.
Incorrect.
> >
> >> > Gearing up to lose another argument, Slava?
> >>
> >> Obviously not, Eric.
> >
> > See what I mean?
> >
>
> Yes, but your meaning is incorrect, thus it is irrelevant.
Argument by repetition, Slava? Ineffective.
--
Prove that African swallows are non-migratory, if you think you can.
------------------------------
From: "Stephen S. Edwards II" &\$)D3E.cyclic.aux.net>
Crossposted-To:
comp%\M@^CXHindows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.fan.b/*5SRGEEs,soc.singles,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: If MicYX.I4.M(tarts renting apts (was: If Microsoft starts
renting/X-;G@(1)
Date: 23 Jul 2000 19:41:06 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]^3es:
: > >> >I wrote it.
: > >>
: > >> No,%24*R_\=
: > >
: > >Do I have to post a damn copyright notice?.Y#[\&:A: > Steal one of those
:too?
: you're not funnIN"^K9F2e just droll.
Sorry Aaron. I read something similar to this way back in the days of
Windows v3.1. It's anything but your concoction.
--
.-----.
|[ ] | Stephen Edwards | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount
| = :| "I'm too polite to use that word, so I'll just say,
| | 'bite me, you baboon-faced ass-scratcher.'"
|_..._| --SEGA's Seaman on the "F" word.
------------------------------
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